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DarthPenguin
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:


There are two key differences between the two arts that merit mentioning: In JJ, a brown belt can promote, and occasionally, depending on the situation, purple belts as well.

In contrast to Karate, only black belts can advance students (which typically takes the form of a panel) kyu/dan ranks.


This is totally different to what i have experienced and observed. A Purple/Brown belt usually can NOT promote. What they can do is ask their BB instructor/coach to promote someone, or ask for their permission in special cases to award a grade.

We came against this when i first started in 2008/9 as my coach at the time was a 4 stripe purple then got his brown. He did not start awarding promotions until he had been a BB for a few years. He was actually told by his instructor that he could now aware promotions. My new instructor is the same. He is a BB and can now promote

if there is a Purple/Brown promoting off their own back then it sounds kinda sketchy to me tbh. Most reputable BJJ places would frown on that
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R5ky
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is some references




1.https://www.yelp.com/biz/gracie-jiu-jitsu-brea-brea

this is ran by a Gracie brown belt

whoever told you its frowned upon may want to discuss this with Rener and Ryron Gracie as this dojo is one of their Certified facilities. Rener and Ryron main headquarters are just a few city blocks away

2.Im sure youve seen Roy Deans YT content...

Here is Chris Mikuta (brown belt), a student of Roy Deans. He owns his own dojo and has videos of himself advancing students to blue belt when he was a purple belt and to purple belt when he was a brown belt.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcUciEQbb7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo3Rrwx5cv4


I utilize the aforementioned as an example to demonstrate that this is done inside the unquestionable lineages.


The general rule of thumb is either two ranks below your own and sometimes one rank under your own. It depends on your affiliation.
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Tyler
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Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
Quote:
You most likely are spot on in America as many Adults might not truly take it as seriously and kids are thrown in there from their parents,

But her in Japan, the Senseis are volunteers and there is a minimal fee. Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect. The kids story is the same, they are usuay forced to!

I think Martial Arts in America is for the most part about profit.

Greed and lust never mix well!

In Japan most Martial arts Dojos are a passion and not a business!


In the situation you indicated, I would strongly disagree with your post's generalization of the majority of Westerners.


(non Japanese) Teachers volunteered their time in every Shoto school I trained at for the same reasons that you did (spiritual,mental and physical aspect).

There are non-profit organizations devoted to the tradition of shoto.
Whether it is JKA, SKA, ISKF, SKIF or another organization, they are supporters of the system.
The instructors I trained with were already well-off and dedicated to teaching Karate, some of whom prioritized it over their families, which I observed would lead to marital problems.

On the other hand..

There are Japanese senseis from JAPAN who would host seminars and demand a hefty fee merely to go over a single kata with an emphasis on form and minimal knowledge of bunkai or basic fundamentals.

Karate's "greed and lust" don't end at US soil, mate

Now, I'd suggest that the aforementioned is true for organizations with legitimate lineages.



There is "Bob Jacksons" Karate (a reference to Jim Carrey's Karate sketch on In Living Color), but those types don't speak for all western practitioners.



Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect
Quote:


What else do you really believe the west uses karate for except what you mentioned?
simply to don a gi and smile at yourself in the mirror and say "hi-ya"?

They exercise for similar motives.


I didn't mean to Imply nor genralize as there are definitely good and many legitimate Karate instructors and businesess in the west but also many underqualified insturctors who primarily focus on excercize and charge an exuberant fee!

In Japan most schools are very cheap or sometimes almost for free and the Sensei does it out of passion.Yet in the West it is expensive therefore you must charge a lot more. In that case I hope the parents who sometimes unknowingly go by word of mouth are able to put their children in a good Dojo regardless of the price, so they can get the proper instruction.

I observed My Nephews Karate class and told My sis to get him out of there ASAP. He wasn't correcting posture, stance and was just mostly doing calistethnics. I watched 3 of the classes and it wasn't really karate! It was a complet MCDOJO!

The whole Cobra Kai has influenced Karate but also shows the down side of it as well. On the other hand it shows the good side! It's definitley entertaining!
Good point is it makes Karate relative once again.

Those Japanese Instructors that come to America night be trying to cover their expenses or just like in the west are about the moolah, regardless sometimes you do get what you pay for!

That's why you should always shop around and go by word of mouth so you don't become a statistic!
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
Quote:
your last two sentences there is exactly how BJJ promotions are conducted, so kinda contradicting yourself lol.


Technically speaking, you are mistaken because a SINGLE brown belt (not panel) can advance a student at any moment during class.
Although I would assert that some schools might administer tests, those I have ever attended did not.
Days of promotions are days of promotions.


Every Karate school administers kyu/dan exams for advancement.
Truthfully, I've never been to a school where the teacher simply gave a kid his subsequent rank during a regular lesson.

The last two sentences spoke to my willingness to see karate adopt that specific aspect of promotion.
if a brown belt goes and starts his own school he can promote anyone he wants in his school.

Iíve never heard of a BJJ brown belt promoting anyone in a school they donít own or where they donít run a program/class on their own like at an MMA school.
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
Quote:
You most likely are spot on in America as many Adults might not truly take it as seriously and kids are thrown in there from their parents,

But her in Japan, the Senseis are volunteers and there is a minimal fee. Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect. The kids story is the same, they are usuay forced to!

I think Martial Arts in America is for the most part about profit.

Greed and lust never mix well!

In Japan most Martial arts Dojos are a passion and not a business!


In the situation you indicated, I would strongly disagree with your post's generalization of the majority of Westerners.


(non Japanese) Teachers volunteered their time in every Shoto school I trained at for the same reasons that you did (spiritual,mental and physical aspect).

There are non-profit organizations devoted to the tradition of shoto.
Whether it is JKA, SKA, ISKF, SKIF or another organization, they are supporters of the system.
The instructors I trained with were already well-off and dedicated to teaching Karate, some of whom prioritized it over their families, which I observed would lead to marital problems.

On the other hand..

There are Japanese senseis from JAPAN who would host seminars and demand a hefty fee merely to go over a single kata with an emphasis on form and minimal knowledge of bunkai or basic fundamentals.

Karate's "greed and lust" don't end at US soil, mate

Now, I'd suggest that the aforementioned is true for organizations with legitimate lineages.



There is "Bob Jacksons" Karate (a reference to Jim Carrey's Karate sketch on In Living Color), but those types don't speak for all western practitioners.



Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect
Quote:


What else do you really believe the west uses karate for except what you mentioned?
simply to don a gi and smile at yourself in the mirror and say "hi-ya"?

They exercise for similar motives.
just because non-profit organizations exist for karate doesnít mean people arenít making bank running them.
I donít know about karate nonprofits but places like the Salvation Army and Red Cross have CEOs who make just as much as for profit CEOs because only a few pennies if every dollar received in a donation or a grant goes to the actual cause.

In the case of karate non-profits Iím pretty sure their Ďcauseí is karate which means just taking money from schools to have a certificate of association and charging people to participate in and attend their tournaments.

Hell I considered the non-profit route because then I could get grant money to pay myself and still charge people a competitive (but slightly lower) rate for classes.
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GS718Trek
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is totally different to what i have experienced and observed. A Purple/Brown belt usually can NOT promote. What they can do is ask their BB instructor/coach to promote someone, or ask for their permission in special cases to award a grade.

We came against this when i first started in 2008/9 as my coach at the time was a 4 stripe purple then got his brown. He did not start awarding promotions until he had been a BB for a few years. He was actually told by his instructor that he could now aware promotions. My new instructor is the same. He is a BB and can now promote

if there is a Purple/Brown promoting off their own back then it sounds kinda sketchy to me tbh. Most reputable BJJ places would frown on that
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I practice JJ in California, and I've seen our brown belt instructor, who occasionally instructs, give certain white belts their stripes without the head instructor being present.
I've only seen this a couple times because I've only been playing JJ for nine months.

Javier Blanchards academy in Anaheim (Machado lineage) he is now a black belt, was running his academy as a brown belt some time back when I was inquiring places to train.

in addition, I recognize that it would be challenging to imagine a third kyu brown belt in karate assigning grades.
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
Quote:
This is totally different to what i have experienced and observed. A Purple/Brown belt usually can NOT promote. What they can do is ask their BB instructor/coach to promote someone, or ask for their permission in special cases to award a grade.

We came against this when i first started in 2008/9 as my coach at the time was a 4 stripe purple then got his brown. He did not start awarding promotions until he had been a BB for a few years. He was actually told by his instructor that he could now aware promotions. My new instructor is the same. He is a BB and can now promote

if there is a Purple/Brown promoting off their own back then it sounds kinda sketchy to me tbh. Most reputable BJJ places would frown on that
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I practice JJ in California, and I've seen our brown belt instructor, who occasionally instructs, give certain white belts their stripes without the head instructor being present.
I've only seen this a couple times because I've only been playing JJ for nine months.

Javier Blanchards academy in Anaheim (Machado lineage) he is now a black belt, was running his academy as a brown belt some time back when I was inquiring places to train.

in addition, I recognize that it would be challenging to imagine a third kyu brown belt in karate assigning grades.
i could see it.
if a school has a brown belt in charge of a certain class of students for their first 3-6 months of training, i see no reason why a brown belt shouldnt be authorized to advance their students that they teach every week.

part of the problem in karate imho is the "black belt isn't the end, its just the beginning" mentality.
it's my belief that by the time you reach shodan you should be proficient in a wide variation of karate techniques, and proficient as a fighter. does that mean UFC, or ONE or bellator level of fighter? not really, but if you were to enter an amateur KB or MT or MMA fight you should at least be able to hold your own and ensure you're not getting steam rolled over.

in BJJ black belt is the end, that doesn't mean BJJ BBs stop training and stop learning, it just means that they sure as heck know what they're doing by that point without a doubt.

if karate as a whole shared a similar mindset then no one would have a problem with brown belts promoting students, especially students with significantly less than a year of training.

i think we can learn and take a lot from the way BJJ does things. they're traditional, i believe BJJ actually is older than any of the named styles of karate, they were wear gis, use japanese and brazilian terms, bow to each other or use other shows of respect regularly, etc but they never pigeon-holed themselves into always following tradition.
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GS718Trek
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
GS718Trek wrote:
Quote:
This is totally different to what i have experienced and observed. A Purple/Brown belt usually can NOT promote. What they can do is ask their BB instructor/coach to promote someone, or ask for their permission in special cases to award a grade.

We came against this when i first started in 2008/9 as my coach at the time was a 4 stripe purple then got his brown. He did not start awarding promotions until he had been a BB for a few years. He was actually told by his instructor that he could now aware promotions. My new instructor is the same. He is a BB and can now promote

if there is a Purple/Brown promoting off their own back then it sounds kinda sketchy to me tbh. Most reputable BJJ places would frown on that
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I practice JJ in California, and I've seen our brown belt instructor, who occasionally instructs, give certain white belts their stripes without the head instructor being present.
I've only seen this a couple times because I've only been playing JJ for nine months.

Javier Blanchards academy in Anaheim (Machado lineage) he is now a black belt, was running his academy as a brown belt some time back when I was inquiring places to train.

in addition, I recognize that it would be challenging to imagine a third kyu brown belt in karate assigning grades.
i could see it.
if a school has a brown belt in charge of a certain class of students for their first 3-6 months of training, i see no reason why a brown belt shouldnt be authorized to advance their students that they teach every week.

part of the problem in karate imho is the "black belt isn't the end, its just the beginning" mentality.
it's my belief that by the time you reach shodan you should be proficient in a wide variation of karate techniques, and proficient as a fighter. does that mean UFC, or ONE or bellator level of fighter? not really, but if you were to enter an amateur KB or MT or MMA fight you should at least be able to hold your own and ensure you're not getting steam rolled over.

in BJJ black belt is the end, that doesn't mean BJJ BBs stop training and stop learning, it just means that they sure as heck know what they're doing by that point without a doubt.

if karate as a whole shared a similar mindset then no one would have a problem with brown belts promoting students, especially students with significantly less than a year of training.

i think we can learn and take a lot from the way BJJ does things. they're traditional, i believe BJJ actually is older than any of the named styles of karate, they were wear gis, use japanese and brazilian terms, bow to each other or use other shows of respect regularly, etc but they never pigeon-holed themselves into always following tradition.
Excellent Post!

But I would also point out that, while a Shodan might not necessarily be a fighter on par with those in the UFC or Bellator, the same can be true with BJJ BBs.
When the punches start to come down, certain BJJ BB that I've seen in smaller promotions like KOTC, for instance, get tkoed.

"Everyone has a plan untill they get punched in the face" -Mike Tyson

"ďPunch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple...Ē
ó Carlson Gracie
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
GS718Trek wrote:
Quote:
This is totally different to what i have experienced and observed. A Purple/Brown belt usually can NOT promote. What they can do is ask their BB instructor/coach to promote someone, or ask for their permission in special cases to award a grade.

We came against this when i first started in 2008/9 as my coach at the time was a 4 stripe purple then got his brown. He did not start awarding promotions until he had been a BB for a few years. He was actually told by his instructor that he could now aware promotions. My new instructor is the same. He is a BB and can now promote

if there is a Purple/Brown promoting off their own back then it sounds kinda sketchy to me tbh. Most reputable BJJ places would frown on that
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I practice JJ in California, and I've seen our brown belt instructor, who occasionally instructs, give certain white belts their stripes without the head instructor being present.
I've only seen this a couple times because I've only been playing JJ for nine months.

Javier Blanchards academy in Anaheim (Machado lineage) he is now a black belt, was running his academy as a brown belt some time back when I was inquiring places to train.

in addition, I recognize that it would be challenging to imagine a third kyu brown belt in karate assigning grades.
i could see it.
if a school has a brown belt in charge of a certain class of students for their first 3-6 months of training, i see no reason why a brown belt shouldnt be authorized to advance their students that they teach every week.

part of the problem in karate imho is the "black belt isn't the end, its just the beginning" mentality.
it's my belief that by the time you reach shodan you should be proficient in a wide variation of karate techniques, and proficient as a fighter. does that mean UFC, or ONE or bellator level of fighter? not really, but if you were to enter an amateur KB or MT or MMA fight you should at least be able to hold your own and ensure you're not getting steam rolled over.

in BJJ black belt is the end, that doesn't mean BJJ BBs stop training and stop learning, it just means that they sure as heck know what they're doing by that point without a doubt.

if karate as a whole shared a similar mindset then no one would have a problem with brown belts promoting students, especially students with significantly less than a year of training.

i think we can learn and take a lot from the way BJJ does things. they're traditional, i believe BJJ actually is older than any of the named styles of karate, they were wear gis, use japanese and brazilian terms, bow to each other or use other shows of respect regularly, etc but they never pigeon-holed themselves into always following tradition.
Excellent Post!

But I would also point out that, while a Shodan might not necessarily be a fighter on par with those in the UFC or Bellator, the same can be true with BJJ BBs.
When the punches start to come down, certain BJJ BB that I've seen in smaller promotions like KOTC, for instance, get tkoed.

"Everyone has a plan untill they get punched in the face" -Mike Tyson

"ďPunch a black belt in the face, he becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, purple...Ē
ó Carlson Gracie
im not saying BJJ BBs are all UFC material either just saying there needs to be a level of physical proficiency unless thereís obvious reasons for exceptions like disabilities etc.

I just donít like this mentality that causes people to think itís normal or ok for a BB to have a beginner level of skilll when compared to boxing, KB, MT, BJJ, etc.
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GS718Trek
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it's my belief that by the time you reach shodan you should be proficient in a wide variation of karate techniques, and proficient as a fighter.


Quote:
I just donít like this mentality that causes people to think itís normal or ok for a BB to have a beginner level of skilll when compared to boxing, KB, MT, BJJ, etc.






You've got my utmost support on those points!

I try my best to represent to the best of my ability the requirements for Shodan, as I am one myself.
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