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DarthPenguin
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 315
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
here is some references




1.https://www.yelp.com/biz/gracie-jiu-jitsu-brea-brea

this is ran by a Gracie brown belt

whoever told you its frowned upon may want to discuss this with Rener and Ryron Gracie as this dojo is one of their Certified facilities. Rener and Ryron main headquarters are just a few city blocks away

2.Im sure youve seen Roy Deans YT content...

Here is Chris Mikuta (brown belt), a student of Roy Deans. He owns his own dojo and has videos of himself advancing students to blue belt when he was a purple belt and to purple belt when he was a brown belt.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcUciEQbb7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo3Rrwx5cv4


I utilize the aforementioned as an example to demonstrate that this is done inside the unquestionable lineages.


The general rule of thumb is either two ranks below your own and sometimes one rank under your own. It depends on your affiliation.


Fair enough, if you have seen it done etc ,and no disagreement that they are 'proper lineages'. I would still wonder though if the Brown belts sought permission from their Black belt coaches for the promotion first but no way of finding that out without being involved directly.

As to who told me it was frowned upon he was a Black belt under one of the Gracies too and for the first year and a half after earning his BB he had to cover the red tab at the end of his belt with white tape. He wasn't allowed to promote off his own back until the tape came off.

But tbh everyone has different rules in martial arts. Skill wise i have no issue either with a Brown Belt promoting someone to Blue etc. - they are obviously skilled enough
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15921
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be surprised if said Brown Belts CI wasn't deeply involved in any promotion administered. I've personally known of several close friends that owned and operated their own dojo at Brown Belt, however, their CI was deeply involved in any administered promotions, i.e., their promotions were authorized by their CI. And no, these personal close friends of mine weren't under my umbrella/authority; they're now Sandan's now.



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GS718Trek
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 152


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd be surprised if said Brown Belts CI wasn't deeply involved in any promotion administered. I've personally known of several close friends that owned and operated their own dojo at Brown Belt, however, their CI was deeply involved in any administered promotions, i.e., their promotions were authorized by their CI. And no, these personal close friends of mine weren't under my umbrella/authority; they're now Sandan's now.


hey Sensei8,

that's interesting because I haven't really run into that while practicing Shotokan or Shorin Ryu.
In class, they occasionally used seasoned brown belts as an example for the lower kyus.

However, I have never seen them approached for their input as part of promotions as they themselves were still part of the Kyu gradings. Dans and above where always graded by higher ranking BBs (yodans and above)

I have seen them assist with kids classes under a black belt but not lead a class solo unless the BB was unable to make it to the dojo on that certain day and would tell them to cover
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15921
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
Quote:
I'd be surprised if said Brown Belts CI wasn't deeply involved in any promotion administered. I've personally known of several close friends that owned and operated their own dojo at Brown Belt, however, their CI was deeply involved in any administered promotions, i.e., their promotions were authorized by their CI. And no, these personal close friends of mine weren't under my umbrella/authority; they're now Sandan's now.


hey Sensei8,

that's interesting because I haven't really run into that while practicing Shotokan or Shorin Ryu.
In class, they occasionally used seasoned brown belts as an example for the lower kyus.

However, I have never seen them approached for their input as part of promotions as they themselves were still part of the Kyu gradings. Dans and above where always graded by higher ranking BBs (yodans and above)

I have seen them assist with kids classes under a black belt but not lead a class solo unless the BB was unable to make it to the dojo on that certain day and would tell them to cover

To the bold type above...

You might've not seen them approached; however, they more than likely were approached behind closed doors by a phone call and/or the CI visiting their dojo's. After all, the reputation of their CI was always at stake one way or another.



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R5ky
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 50


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
just because non-profit organizations exist for karate doesnít mean people arenít making bank running them.
I donít know about karate nonprofits but places like the Salvation Army and Red Cross have CEOs who make just as much as for profit CEOs because only a few pennies if every dollar received in a donation or a grant goes to the actual cause.

In the case of karate non-profits Iím pretty sure their Ďcauseí is karate which means just taking money from schools to have a certificate of association and charging people to participate in and attend their tournaments.

Hell I considered the non-profit route because then I could get grant money to pay myself and still charge people a competitive (but slightly lower) rate for classes.


Certainly, such is the situation in the majority of cases.
In my response, I simply emphasized that I did not entirely concur that most Westerners who practice and teach karate lack ethics and are money-hungry thieves when contrasted to Japanese people.
I think that the majority of people on this site, many of whom I assume are from the US, teach and train out of a sense of enthusiasm even if I am aware that there must be some profit gained (particularly to pay the bills, etc.).

Since you wouldn't have persevered this long to get your current level if you didn't have a passion for it, I know that each and every one of you enjoys practicing karate.
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R5ky
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 50


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I didn't mean to Imply nor genralize as there are definitely good and many legitimate Karate instructors and businesess in the west but also many underqualified insturctors who primarily focus on excercize and charge an exuberant fee!

In Japan most schools are very cheap or sometimes almost for free and the Sensei does it out of passion.Yet in the West it is expensive therefore you must charge a lot more. In that case I hope the parents who sometimes unknowingly go by word of mouth are able to put their children in a good Dojo regardless of the price, so they can get the proper instruction.

I observed My Nephews Karate class and told My sis to get him out of there ASAP. He wasn't correcting posture, stance and was just mostly doing calistethnics. I watched 3 of the classes and it wasn't really karate! It was a complet MCDOJO!

The whole Cobra Kai has influenced Karate but also shows the down side of it as well. On the other hand it shows the good side! It's definitely entertaining!
Good point is it makes Karate relative once again.

Those Japanese Instructors that come to America night be trying to cover their expenses or just like in the west are about the moolah, regardless sometimes you do get what you pay for!

That's why you should always shop around and go by word of mouth so you don't become a statistic!


You make a valid point, and it's true that the west is home to many money vampires that operate horrible mcdojos.
But I was only making the point from my own experience that there are genuine, passionate non-Japanese instructors out there.
When instructing and training students in karate, many of them do maintain the Japanese etiquette toward martial arts.


A excellent example are the individuals who frequently contribute to this forum and give their experience, many of whom I believe reside in the states.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
GS718Trek wrote:
Quote:
I'd be surprised if said Brown Belts CI wasn't deeply involved in any promotion administered. I've personally known of several close friends that owned and operated their own dojo at Brown Belt, however, their CI was deeply involved in any administered promotions, i.e., their promotions were authorized by their CI. And no, these personal close friends of mine weren't under my umbrella/authority; they're now Sandan's now.


hey Sensei8,

that's interesting because I haven't really run into that while practicing Shotokan or Shorin Ryu.
In class, they occasionally used seasoned brown belts as an example for the lower kyus.

However, I have never seen them approached for their input as part of promotions as they themselves were still part of the Kyu gradings. Dans and above where always graded by higher ranking BBs (yodans and above)

I have seen them assist with kids classes under a black belt but not lead a class solo unless the BB was unable to make it to the dojo on that certain day and would tell them to cover

To the bold type above...

You might've not seen them approached; however, they more than likely were approached behind closed doors by a phone call and/or the CI visiting their dojo's. After all, the reputation of their CI was always at stake one way or another.




Exactly this. I am often approached in private to give my thoughts on a student getting close to a test. Given, I have 20 years of experience, but even when I was a new brown belt (over a decade ago) this would happen. If you use brown belts to teach new material, then the brown belts are going to be the ones with the most intimate knowledge on where those new students are. It's only natural to ask them what they think.
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GS718Trek
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 152


PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You might've not seen them approached; however, they more than likely were approached behind closed doors by a phone call and/or the CI visiting their dojo's. After all, the reputation of their CI was always at stake one way or another.



Quote:
Exactly this. I am often approached in private to give my thoughts on a student getting close to a test. Given, I have 20 years of experience, but even when I was a new brown belt (over a decade ago) this would happen. If you use brown belts to teach new material, then the brown belts are going to be the ones with the most intimate knowledge on where those new students are. It's only natural to ask them what they think.






it is comforting to know that brown belts are regarded in that way.


When they train, I do observe brown belts being treated somewhat like leaders of the lower kyus.
It follows that their viewpoint should be respected.


A brown belt is regarded as a "expert" in Jiu-Jitsu, therefore it stands to reason that the same would be true in karate.
A brown belt is essentially a non-official version of a black belt.

Like in JJ, I've observed some really skilled brown belts in karate who excelled in kata, kumite, and general technique, some of whom significantly outperformed the shodans in our regular classes.

perhaps that's oftentimes when you can see them at their best because they're giving it their all because getting that black belt is within reach.
I'll admit that as a brown belt, I was Zealous.
I had a "get out of the way or be run over because I'm getting it!" mentality
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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
Quote:

I didn't mean to Imply nor genralize as there are definitely good and many legitimate Karate instructors and businesess in the west but also many underqualified insturctors who primarily focus on excercize and charge an exuberant fee!

In Japan most schools are very cheap or sometimes almost for free and the Sensei does it out of passion.Yet in the West it is expensive therefore you must charge a lot more. In that case I hope the parents who sometimes unknowingly go by word of mouth are able to put their children in a good Dojo regardless of the price, so they can get the proper instruction.

I observed My Nephews Karate class and told My sis to get him out of there ASAP. He wasn't correcting posture, stance and was just mostly doing calistethnics. I watched 3 of the classes and it wasn't really karate! It was a complet MCDOJO!

The whole Cobra Kai has influenced Karate but also shows the down side of it as well. On the other hand it shows the good side! It's definitely entertaining!
Good point is it makes Karate relative once again.

Those Japanese Instructors that come to America night be trying to cover their expenses or just like in the west are about the moolah, regardless sometimes you do get what you pay for!

That's why you should always shop around and go by word of mouth so you don't become a statistic!


You make a valid point, and it's true that the west is home to many money vampires that operate horrible mcdojos.
But I was only making the point from my own experience that there are genuine, passionate non-Japanese instructors out there.
When instructing and training students in karate, many of them do maintain the Japanese etiquette toward martial arts.


A excellent example are the individuals who frequently contribute to this forum and give their experience, many of whom I believe reside in the states.


Yes, I agree!
If, I was in the States now I would look forward to finding a good Dojo and would definitley research and go by word of mouth

Just because many of the martial arts comes from Japan doesn't always mean their style is any better as long as the Sensei in Any country has done his homework and is worthy!

Sometimes I feel many DoJos in the States actually do teach it better!

ex: Baseball
Japanese are good at baseball but they practice everyday under grueling conditions and it is almost torturous!
Thats why many players and coaches have a tough time in Japan adapting to the rigorous training! in the states we practice about a third of what they do!

I just found 2 great and easy going senseis and thats why I like practicing with them. (besides I feel young, lol

Shindo sensei is 76 and Adachi Sensei is 80! but when they put on their Karate gi they look like they are in their 50's

In the states I like the warm ups, in Japan in my Dojo there isn't much of warming up which should be required to get the blood flowing for the older people like me (57) one of my 2 senseis is 80 and never stretches and is a rare specimen and the oldest practicioner amongst the over 5,000 in my style. Adachi Sensei is a legend and a non conforming Japanese with ear rings a moustache and skull rings and carries himself with a young and open minded attitude.

Its one of the thing that has kept me here besides My previous divorce and My son is still in High school. I plan to return to California soon and have been researching which Dojo would suit me once I return most likely next year or soon after (Covid?)
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