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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: If the confrontation cant be avoided.... |
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When people offer self defense advice i often hear: "if the confrontation cant be avoided.... do this".
Im interested to know at what point people consider a confrontation "unavoidable", because from my experience most confrontations can be avoided right up to the moment where the other person throws the first punch.
Thoughts? |
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Tiger1962
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 1100
Location: U.S.A.
Styles: Former SBD; interest in all training styles.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: If the confrontation cant be avoided.... |
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| cross wrote: |
When people offer self defense advice i often hear: "if the confrontation cant be avoided.... do this".
Im interested to know at what point people consider a confrontation "unavoidable", because from my experience most confrontations can be avoided right up to the moment where the other person throws the first punch.
Thoughts? |
I agree with your perception there. Someone can curse you or insult you in the worst possible way in order to provoke or antagonize a fight but if someone is disciplined enough to shrug that off then a fight can "probably" be avoided. That being said, there is still the type of sicko out there who actually WANTS to physically fight and WILL throw the first punch or shove or whatever to get it started. To me, once someone puts their hands on me, then there is no question of whether or not there is going to be a fight.
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"Never argue with an idiot because they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ~ Dilbert |
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the beast
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1313
Location: Pittsburgh Pa
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: If the confrontation cant be avoided.... |
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| Tiger1962 wrote: |
| cross wrote: |
When people offer self defense advice i often hear: "if the confrontation cant be avoided.... do this".
Im interested to know at what point people consider a confrontation "unavoidable", because from my experience most confrontations can be avoided right up to the moment where the other person throws the first punch.
Thoughts? |
I agree with your perception there. Someone can curse you or insult you in the worst possible way in order to provoke or antagonize a fight but if someone is disciplined enough to shrug that off then a fight can "probably" be avoided. That being said, there is still the type of sicko out there who actually WANTS to physically fight and WILL throw the first punch or shove or whatever to get it started. To me, once someone puts their hands on me, then there is no question of whether or not there is going to be a fight. |
I totally agree with you Tiger any confrontation can be avoided until the other person lays hands on you, then it's go time. 
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Semper Fi , Dave |
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joesteph
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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My sensei for self-defense JuJitsu is a believer in the "palms up" (as opposed to "fists up") position, seeing it as a self-defense guard. He's a police officer, and when there are altercations, he looks for witnesses. Witnesses to your fists up immediately will conclude you're agreeing to a fight, rather than trying to prevent one, which is what "hands up" signifies. He also suggests that the individual can rave and rant all he wants, but don't let him move in on you, say within three feet. If he moves in, you defend yourself immediately, with "self-defense" including that your adversary hasn't yet thrown a punch or kick. You don't have to have your coat grabbed or your teeth knocked in to start defending yourself.
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~ Joe
Vee Arnis Jitsu/JuJitsu |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think the key is to be able to articulate that you were fearful of an impending attack. Looking for physical clues like the clenching fists, clenching jaws, and moving into your personal space.
Can you talk everyone down? Maybe. At what point do you go the other way? I think it depends on how threatened that you feel.
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Traymond
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 997
Location: Michigan
Styles: Sensei of Brasshand Style, but practicioner of many
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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It is unavoidable when the "assailant" steps towards you, as I have been taught...in a real opinion which is mine in another words, but whatever...
If someone is coming at your with a knife its unavoidable, if someone is screaming at you and coming towards you its unavoidable...if someone is talking to you and moving his hands are to much, I would say just to be safe to incapacitate him...but thats just me.
Im to quick to look at someone and wonder if they truly mean to hurt me, and usually if I dont know them then I think they would...
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To fear death is to limit life - Xin Sarith Azuma Phan Wuku |
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BDPulver
Green Belt
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 386
Location: Kentucky and New Jersey
Styles: Isshinryu, Kobudo, Knife Training
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty much what Joesteph said. The open hand guard with looking for witness's is the best approach.
As far as when to consider the time to defend, my teacher always had us do a imaginary circle around us. Typically about 3 feet all around. If the intruder invades that 3 foot space then you know its going to be a confrontation.
We sometimes would train to stay within that 3 foot distance, its tough but is doable. |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| BDPulver wrote: |
Pretty much what Joesteph said. The open hand guard with looking for witness's is the best approach.
As far as when to consider the time to defend, my teacher always had us do a imaginary circle around us. Typically about 3 feet all around. If the intruder invades that 3 foot space then you know its going to be a confrontation.
We sometimes would train to stay within that 3 foot distance, its tough but is doable. |
Interesting points and i certainly agree with the passive stance method. However im not sure its a black and white situation where if they enter a certain space then its a certainty that the fights on.
For example, i was in a situation where a guy i was standing next to at a bar started talking to me and seemingly out of no-where started becoming rather aggressive towards me and suggested we should "step outside" which i didnt want any part of, the whole time he was well within my personal space and even started pushing me at one point, moments later security removed him. I enjoyed the rest of my night. If i acted on the assumption that if he came within a certain distance, or if he touched me, or if he stepped towards me and then attacked straight away, the night would have ended a whole lot differently for me.
I suppose my point is, there isnt really a clear cut answer, and like most things in self defense, its dynamic and 100% situational. |
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joesteph
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| cross wrote: |
i was in a situation where a guy i was standing next to at a bar started talking to me and seemingly out of no-where started becoming rather aggressive towards me . . . and even started pushing me at one point, moments later security removed him.
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It's fortunate that security was right on the spot, Cross, and perhaps your knowledge of martial arts, which I'm sure is more advanced than mine, gave you a size-up of the situation that you felt you could hold off, but I must admit I strongly believe that I would have reacted immediately upon his push. I couldn't chance him striking me.
I do understand what you mean by examining the three feet rule as a guide, but it's more for someone approaching you, not that the adversary was right next to you all along, apparently friendly, then suddenly turning belligerent.
But did you have your hands in any particular position of defense while he ranted? It's likely he was loud enough to catch security's attention, but did you say anything in particular, Cross, loud enough that security knew you weren't looking for a fight?
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Vee Arnis Jitsu/JuJitsu |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| joesteph wrote: |
It's fortunate that security was right on the spot, Cross, and perhaps your knowledge of martial arts, which I'm sure is more advanced than mine, gave you a size-up of the situation that you felt you could hold off, but I must admit I strongly believe that I would have reacted immediately upon his push. I couldn't chance him striking me. |
Its been my experience that if someone asks you to "step outside" or they push you and are yelling etc. Its all because they have not reached a level of anger where they are ready to actually stike you yet. They are looking for a reaction, i.e. the moment you agree to step outside with them, or you push them back, or you join in on the argument with them then you are giving them the reason they are looking for to start actually fighting with you. If a person wants you to step outside its because they have a reason why they dont want to do whatever it is they have planned for you inside, the longer you can stay inside the better, in most cases.
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| But did you have your hands in any particular position of defense while he ranted? It's likely he was loud enough to catch security's attention, but did you say anything in particular, Cross, loud enough that security knew you weren't looking for a fight? |
I didnt have my hands in any particular position, however i have trained quiet extensively in pre-emptive strikes and defense from both passive positions and a more natural hands by the side position, but has mentioned above he wasnt ready to actually fight yet, situational awareness and the understanding of human behaviour made that quiet clear.
Yet most self defense classes you go to will tell you that the moment a person starts yelling at you or lays a finger on you then you should pre-emptively strike to try and 'finish' the situation. When in reality, most people are not that good at pre-emptive strikes and chances are if your not confident you can knock someone out with a solid pre-empt you probably wont and will just give the person a green light to start fighting you. Most of the time if you wait just a few more seconds the person will often start seeing reason and calm down without the need for you to punch their lights out.
Also i didnt feel that yelling "i dont want to fight" so security could hear was a very smart option at the time. Drawing further attention to the situation was not really needed being that the security guards would have noticed one rather loud aggressive person and a passive calm "victim"(me). |
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on the post.
