Add KarateForums.com
VOTING OPEN! KarateForums.com Awards 2019!
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Internal Arts and Philosophy
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

bassaiguy
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 164
Location: Maine, USA
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Internal forms in karate Reply with quote

Karate is not an internal art, but there are forms known as 'tanren kata" that are used to develop power, body conditioning and, some instructors would say, ki. Tanren kata include Sanchin from the Goju-ryu family and Naihanchi/Tekki from Shorin-ryu/Shotokan.

I have very little exposure to CMA in general and have had only the most brief introduction to Yang Taiji. However, I'm hoping there might be people on the board that have practiced both Chinese internal arts and karate who might be able to comment on similarities. Clearly there is a physical difference (soft vs. hard), but are there intrinsic similarities in the way tanren kata and internal forms develop fajing/power and even chi/ki (whatever that is).
_________________
"Honour, not honours." ~ Sir Richard Francis Burton

http://oronokarate.weebly.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27855
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always been skeptical about the idea of a form being "internal" or "external." Power development comes from the muscles, and how they interact around the skeletal system. I think the idea of ki or chi is more related to the ability to use the hips and the core to create good power through sound technique and breathing technique.

I have been practicing Naifanchi Shodan, but don't really know of any internal benefits from it.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

JusticeZero
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always seemed to me that the only major difference between "Internal" and "External" is the difference between "Obsess over form first before trying to do it hard" versus "Try to do it hard; we'll fix the form later".
_________________
"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

bassaiguy
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 164
Location: Maine, USA
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have been more specific. I'm a true skeptic when it comes to the spiritual properties of chi/ki. When I have seen high level taiji people hit really hard they have attributed it to fajing, which I think means some kind of total coordination between breath, core strength and strike (I think this what bushido-man was describing). I think this is the chief benefit of internal forms - that it allows for the development of this really amazing power to strike with great force with seemingly little effort. I spent about a year/year and half working only on Tekki Shodan, mostly bunkai, but also movement and conditioning, and I don't think I have developed anything close the fajing power (or relaxed power) I have seen demonstrated. So, what are we karate people missing?
_________________
"Honour, not honours." ~ Sir Richard Francis Burton

http://oronokarate.weebly.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

JusticeZero
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Form and structure. I don't know about the Karate form exactly, but gongfu tends to have some counter-intuitive ways of generating acceleration or peak impulse that are based around constructing a rigid structure inside of the target.
_________________
"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27855
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know that Karate folks are missing anything. I've known some great strikers. I think some people get caught up in the mysticism of what chi/ki/internal styles are, and want to try to obsess over methods that no one can really seem to explain.

If you are practicing bunkai, then the focus of your practice there is in the application, and not so much the strike itself. The strike is important, but the outcome of the application is fore in the mind. If you are hitting a makiwara or a heavy bag, then the focus is on the strike, and all of its components.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I don't know that Karate folks are missing anything. I've known some great strikers. I think some people get caught up in the mysticism of what chi/ki/internal styles are, and want to try to obsess over methods that no one can really seem to explain.

If you are practicing bunkai, then the focus of your practice there is in the application, and not so much the strike itself. The strike is important, but the outcome of the application is fore in the mind. If you are hitting a makiwara or a heavy bag, then the focus is on the strike, and all of its components.

Solid post!!


_________________
Vote for Your Favorites in the KarateForums.com Awards 2019!


**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been a great fan of "external"/"internal"...I just know one thing...attack me, and I'm going to hit your external so hard that your internal is going to hurt...a lot!!



_________________
Vote for Your Favorites in the KarateForums.com Awards 2019!


**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27855
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I've never been a great fan of "external"/"internal"...I just know one thing...attack me, and I'm going to hit your external so hard that your internal is going to hurt...a lot!!


That's fantastic!
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

cheesefrysamurai
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 491
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow this is something i wish i could grasp
_________________
Nothing Worth Having Is Easily Obtained - ESPECIALLY RANK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Internal Arts and Philosophy All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >