Is "how much force to use" the wrong question?

JusticeZero · Black Belt

Okay, how about this piece of elaboration.

You walk out of a house at night, in a residential neighborhood.

You know that all the doors, save for the front, are locked and barred. You left the front door unlocked and slightly ajar, as you only stepped out to check the mail.

For whatever reason, you have a handgun in a chest holster under your windbreaker, which is closed but not fastened. (If a gun nut must ask for details, we will claim it is a .45ACP M1911, but I doubt it really matters for practical purposes.)

On your way back, from behind a parked car, someone steps out, steps into range more rapidly than you can react (not having seen, expected them there, or identified them as a threat until it was too late) and pushes you against a relatively impassable fence with a hedge growing against it. She produces a large cooking knife, held in the manner that one might use to cut food, and holds it to your neck. At this range, you can identify her as an individual that you had encountered earlier, who you saw distinct signs of being mentally unstable and narcissistic with a lack of ability to think of future consequences. You had encountered her at work, where she got upset at something strange, and security removed her.

She tells you that she is going to kill you, because some bizarre consequence that could presumably be linked in some strange way to her getting thrown out had ruined her life and made it worthless. Her breath smells like alcohol. You can see that she is psyching herself up into a more adrenalized state, and that the grip on the knife is changing in a way that appears that they are preparing to cut.

A siren goes past, but passes not going to you, and she looks away, moving the knife off line with you.

She now has the back side of the blade facing you, held in her right hand; her right arm is over her chest and her head and attention is focused on looking to her left to identify the noise.

At this point you note the following:
She is somewhat unbalanced, tipsy and wearing heels for crying out loud, and standing on the edge of the sidewalk, with her feet perpendicular to you; she would have no way to avoid being pushed backward.

Behind her is a puddle of water, which you know by familiarity has a treacherous and deep pothole at the bottom of it, which has caused more than a couple of people to trip and fall into before.

Your right hand is in a fence position; by shifting your weight, you could shove her backward, causing her to fall backward into the puddle.

Your right hand is also perfectly positioned to draw your handgun, though if you push them, it obviously won't be quite so well placed anymore.

You are six steps away from the front door to the otherwise empty house, which is slightly ajar. The door will latch if pulled closed from the inside; it also has a deadbolt.

There is a telephone inside. For that matter, you have a cell phone.

What's the response?
As noted, it seems as though a troublingly large number of people's first reaction would be to draw the pistol. Certainly a valid response, but is it the best?
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MasterPain · Black Belt

Weapon deployment requires space. It would be best to push her off and retreat through the door as she gets up. Lock the door and call 911. If she breaks through the door, you'd better be prepared to shoot if she won't respond to verbal commands.
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Groinstrike · Pre-Black Belt

Agreed, studies have shown that a person needs at least 21 feet to draw a pistol against a rushing attacker with knife. Any thing closer than this and even if you draw your weapon and hit your target this victory will most likely be pyrric.

If someone is on you that quickly you better be prepared to expel your attacker and get to your weapon or get away.

Edit: As far as estimating how i would respond in that specific situation, to me it doesn't matter that the assailant is female, she has a knife therefore in my mind all bets are off. I will be responding with brutal crushing force until the attacker is subdued.

sensei8 · KF Sensei

JusticeZero · Black Belt

Right, I know. But the issue is that it seems like a lot of discussions pop up with this idea of "Well, she had a knife, therefore I get to use lethal force, and that's what my gun is for". Well really?
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tallgeese · Black Belt

To me, yes.

It's not worth me taking the off chance of getting cut, possibly badly enough to get killed, when I have a perfectly good and legal option of responding with deadly force from a distance that does not require that possibility of death or great bodily harm.

This answer is different for everyone and everyone's threshold and acceptance of risk for the benefit of the attacking individual is different based on a whole host of acceptable reasons.

It's a HIGHLY individualized question. All you can really do is find the right answer for you that is legally acceptable.
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JusticeZero · Black Belt

Right. That said, the situation contains a lockable door less than 12 feet away for a reason. You have shoes. She has heels. She's stumbling at the edge of a pool of water.
And yet, when I pose the situation, I note that more of the responses contain some variation of the words "I need to fight". than not.

Liver Punch · Green Belt

Controlling the knife would be step number one. After that, I'd want to control it and remove it if possible. The next best option would be to push her and the weapon as far away as possible, knocking her down if possible. If the knife is secure, I'd control her physically and yell my lungs raw for help to arrive. If the knife isn't secure, I'd draw my pistol, put myself between her and the door, and start negotiating at gunpoint (while making a 911 call). If I'm secure, and my home is secure, I've got to make sure she isn't a harm to anyone else.

In short, my number one concern is controlling this person. This is to a)protect my family, b) to protect myself, and c) to protect the general public. If I'm at all capable, I have to protect everyone from this threat - I think it's my responsibility.
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"A gun is a tool. Like a butcher knife or a harpoon, or uhh... an alligator."
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JusticeZero · Black Belt

MasterPain · Black Belt

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