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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nevinyrral wrote:
As for the style... a lot of people say you wont learn timing and other things related to sparring and fighting. But to be honest, a big majority of traditional styles (mostly karate and tkd) dont teach sparring or teach only point sparring with little to no contact.


This may be the case, but timing is still an important factor in point sparring, along with rhythm, reaction time, etc. It is difficult to learn these things without someone or something to react to.
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ramymensa
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 1441
Location: Timisoara, Romania
Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on my experience at my old dojo, getting to Shodan takes at least 8-10 years. My guys there were a pretty old-school bunch of guys and our shodans had to train extensively for this. Given that and COVID, which is what puts us all behind everything (work, training, social life), I don't see it as an issue, as in 1-2 years (max. as I hope this madness will still last), you would prolly go to green belt max. Right now I think it's good for everyone to just train as well as they can. In MA you do need a partner to work with and ideally your sense to teach you proper timing / distance as others have already mentioned. I'd focus less on belts right now and more on just keeping up with some form of training.

My daughter is doing tennis and, if we cannot train on the court (it's winter and I cannot afford paying 60 bucks/hour just to train indoors), we try to do conditioning and anything that can be done in these conditions. When the weather turns milder, we can resume her tennis lessons, but in the meantime she can build stronger muscles, get better stamina etc.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramymensa wrote:
Based on my experience at my old dojo, getting to Shodan takes at least 8-10 years. My guys there were a pretty old-school bunch of guys and our shodans had to train extensively for this. Given that and COVID, which is what puts us all behind everything (work, training, social life), I don't see it as an issue, as in 1-2 years (max. as I hope this madness will still last), you would prolly go to green belt max. Right now I think it's good for everyone to just train as well as they can. In MA you do need a partner to work with and ideally your sense to teach you proper timing / distance as others have already mentioned. I'd focus less on belts right now and more on just keeping up with some form of training.

My daughter is doing tennis and, if we cannot train on the court (it's winter and I cannot afford paying 60 bucks/hour just to train indoors), we try to do conditioning and anything that can be done in these conditions. When the weather turns milder, we can resume her tennis lessons, but in the meantime she can build stronger muscles, get better stamina etc.

Welcome back, ramymensa; glad to have you back!!

Solid post, as well.



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advfhorn
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 61
Location: NJ - USA
Styles: Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What other people do does not bother me. IMHO anyone's blackbelt (or rank for that matter) is a visual recognition of where their Sensei believes they are at in learning or understanding.
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Bobd400
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 12 Apr 2021
Posts: 8

Styles: Wing chun

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think, like much in life, the answer isn't so clear cut. As some have already alluded to, there are factors to be considered.

Two of the most important are 1)what's your background and 2)what's your goals?

If your goal is to become proficient in self defense and/or fighting, AND you have no experience in either previously, then I think most would agree no, this wouldn't work.

But let's change a variable...if you have experience (or already are training elsewhere) training "live", then it's a maybe. If you can integrate your virtual training into your live experience it may work. You may still be rusty on things like timing, position, etc. But your virtual training should offer SOME benefit.

Now let's change another variable, your goal is not to fight and/or enhance your self defense skills, but rather are looking to get the other qualities of martial arts...exercise, physical skills (balance, awareness of body, etc.), mental simulation, etc. I'd say yes. Again, prior or current "live" training will make this much more productive.

The closer you get to live training the more beneficial it will be. Does the virtual training allow questions? Do you submit videos for review/grading that get true feedback?

Virtual is never going to be a substitute for live training, but that doesn't mean it won't have value. It depends on your situation and your goals.

Incidentally I think we all would agree that you should direct yourself to what you want to do, regardless of the opinions of others.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobd400 wrote:
I think, like much in life, the answer isn't so clear cut. As some have already alluded to, there are factors to be considered.

Two of the most important are 1)what's your background and 2)what's your goals?

If your goal is to become proficient in self defense and/or fighting, AND you have no experience in either previously, then I think most would agree no, this wouldn't work.

But let's change a variable...if you have experience (or already are training elsewhere) training "live", then it's a maybe. If you can integrate your virtual training into your live experience it may work. You may still be rusty on things like timing, position, etc. But your virtual training should offer SOME benefit.

Now let's change another variable, your goal is not to fight and/or enhance your self defense skills, but rather are looking to get the other qualities of martial arts...exercise, physical skills (balance, awareness of body, etc.), mental simulation, etc. I'd say yes. Again, prior or current "live" training will make this much more productive.

The closer you get to live training the more beneficial it will be. Does the virtual training allow questions? Do you submit videos for review/grading that get true feedback?

Virtual is never going to be a substitute for live training, but that doesn't mean it won't have value. It depends on your situation and your goals.

Incidentally I think we all would agree that you should direct yourself to what you want to do, regardless of the opinions of others.

While I'm staunchly opposed against earning a BB on-line, nonetheless, you're post is solid!!

Welcome to KF, Bobd400; glad that you're here!!


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Bobd400
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 12 Apr 2021
Posts: 8

Styles: Wing chun

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Sensei8, I appreciate that! Looking forward to it.
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Montana
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 825
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it ok with you to become a black belt through online. Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:

1. The no in me says that part of training is human interaction and sparring with different bodies. Also there is competition and seeing different people perform moves with different body types and bringing their own perspectives

IMHO, if you're training/learning totally online, without a partner to practice techniques on, you're wasting your time (and money). You learn the moves, but you're not getting the experiences of someone actually attacking you to see how the technique works.

Himokiri Karate wrote:
2. The yes in me says that if moves are being learned correctly and demonstrated flawlessly, then a person is a martial artist and that being a good fighter goes beyond sparring.

Without a qualified teacher to critique you, how do you know your doing techniques flawlessly? You may think you are, but ...


Himokiri Karate wrote:
I find myself flip flopping back and forth. I feel that as long as someone is going out there to seek sparring to make sure their online training is being used in pressure cooker situation, then online certification might not be too bad.


IMHO, if you're getting certification from some online course, it's only worth the paper it's printed on.

I had a guy come into my dojo years ago claiming he had an 8th Dan in karate. being ever the skeptical person I am I asked a few obvious questions, like "What system?" He didn't know. "Sensei's name?" He didn't know.

I said "How can you become an 8th dan and not know the name of the system or your sensei?" He said it was online and took him ALMOST a year to get the rank.

I asked him to show me a kata, he had no idea what that was. He did show me some stances and blocks, but they were very, very sad, slow and weak. His punch would have broken his wrist and hand, his kicks lacked any semblance of power or control, and he stood with straight legs.

I asked him why he was there and he told me he wanted to be an instructor at my school. (I'm trying really hard not to laugh through all this). I asked him if he knew any of our katas, of course he didn't. Asked him to show me blocks, not even close. Philosophy? Nope.

After about 45 minutes I sent him on his way with a little lesson on taking online course. I told him he's going to get himself killed if he started telling everybody he was an 8th dan black belt, because eventually somebody was going to challenge him and he was going to get a severe beating.

I did offer to let him into my class as long as he NEVER mentioned his 8th dan or online training again. He left and I never saw him again.
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Lupin1
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1636
Location: Texas USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I don't think promoting students to the dan ranks online is in keeping with the purpose of rank. At some point you have to ask yourself what rank means and what its purpose is.

I don't believe martial arts can be taught effectively online. We've done a great job this past year doing the best we can with what we had, but it's certainly not ideal.

Promoting to the kyu ranks online is one thing, as they are more for motivation than anything else. But moving from kyu to dan is a much bigger step, which I believe requires an in-person test.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28973
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Is it ok with you to become a black belt through online. Reply with quote

Montana wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:

1. The no in me says that part of training is human interaction and sparring with different bodies. Also there is competition and seeing different people perform moves with different body types and bringing their own perspectives

IMHO, if you're training/learning totally online, without a partner to practice techniques on, you're wasting your time (and money). You learn the moves, but you're not getting the experiences of someone actually attacking you to see how the technique works.

Himokiri Karate wrote:
2. The yes in me says that if moves are being learned correctly and demonstrated flawlessly, then a person is a martial artist and that being a good fighter goes beyond sparring.

Without a qualified teacher to critique you, how do you know your doing techniques flawlessly? You may think you are, but ...


Himokiri Karate wrote:
I find myself flip flopping back and forth. I feel that as long as someone is going out there to seek sparring to make sure their online training is being used in pressure cooker situation, then online certification might not be too bad.


IMHO, if you're getting certification from some online course, it's only worth the paper it's printed on.

I had a guy come into my dojo years ago claiming he had an 8th Dan in karate. being ever the skeptical person I am I asked a few obvious questions, like "What system?" He didn't know. "Sensei's name?" He didn't know.

I said "How can you become an 8th dan and not know the name of the system or your sensei?" He said it was online and took him ALMOST a year to get the rank.

I asked him to show me a kata, he had no idea what that was. He did show me some stances and blocks, but they were very, very sad, slow and weak. His punch would have broken his wrist and hand, his kicks lacked any semblance of power or control, and he stood with straight legs.

I asked him why he was there and he told me he wanted to be an instructor at my school. (I'm trying really hard not to laugh through all this). I asked him if he knew any of our katas, of course he didn't. Asked him to show me blocks, not even close. Philosophy? Nope.

After about 45 minutes I sent him on his way with a little lesson on taking online course. I told him he's going to get himself killed if he started telling everybody he was an 8th dan black belt, because eventually somebody was going to challenge him and he was going to get a severe beating.

I did offer to let him into my class as long as he NEVER mentioned his 8th dan or online training again. He left and I never saw him again.


This, sounds like the ultimate online nightmare, and what most of us tend to think of happening when someone mentions "online training and promotion" (although, I was surprised to see he was "allowed" to reach 8th dan...).
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