Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29324
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always enjoyed forms training myself. As I've gotten more experience and learned more things, I've found different things of value over the years. Do I think it should be the heart of training? That's a bit tougher to decide on. I like to think of training as a stool, with at least three legs, if not four. Kata/forms training is just one of the legs. Like a stool, if you take one of the legs away, you lose some of the balance and stability.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 380

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kata is good for working up a sweat but its not going to win you a tournament.


All seriousness, my answer is a yes and a no. Let me explain:

No for part time karateka

Yes for full time karateka


What I mean is, most folks that Karate do so maybe 2 or 3 times a week. The classes are an hour, the time SHOULD be dedicated to body conditioning, cardio and extreme flexibility as well as restorative stretches for folks who are part time karateka.


That being said, I also understand members of the karaeforum.com. You guys eat, breath and live karate. To omit kata is to deny the essence of life because karate is not part of your life but rather IT IS life itself!


Because you guys are so deep in to karate, kata serves as a way to improve your software without damaging your hard wear. Karate is physical and a full time karateka has to treat their training as a marathon and not a sprint since you guys are frequent practitioners.

In conclusion:

Part time karatekas should focus on intensive, explosive fighting techniques because the down time for next session allows for recovery

Full time karateka should do katas because they are training all the time and because of that they should ease up on explosive training and focus more on kata type training provided its done right.


Also it depends on students personal goals as well. If a young lady wants to learn protection, then she should be in a superb cardiovascular shape and better knuckle up for Makiwara training or conditioning. If another student wants to understand the essence of karate and engage in its subtle nature, then I suppose kata can be effective if its done in a meditative state with mind being clear of thoughts and breath being synched in with the movements to provide that potent experience.
_________________
It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

ashworth
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 669
Location: UK
Styles: Shotokan, IJR Karate, Iaido, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
Kata is good for working up a sweat but its not going to win you a tournament.


Unless it's a kata Tournament?
_________________
Ashley Aldworth

Train together, Learn together, Succeed together...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

ashworth
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 669
Location: UK
Styles: Shotokan, IJR Karate, Iaido, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also find that kata can provide us with a universal tool that we can take to other places. for example the Kata Bassai Dai, learn the pattern, applications and key principles from your instructor. Further down the line a different club may be hosting a seminar on that particular kata which you can go along to and learn a different view of the kata, different applications and different principles from another instructor...
_________________
Ashley Aldworth

Train together, Learn together, Succeed together...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

DarthPenguin
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 134
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

aurik
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 269
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)


That depends on the style, I guess. The bunkai for Uechi-Ryu kata (or at least all the bunksis I've seen so far) very closely mirror the kata. So much that when we perform bunkai, we will perform a sequence of the kata, show the application for that sequence, and then perform that sequence solo again and move on to the next sequence. For example, the bunkai for kanshiwa (required for 9th-7th kyu) can be seen here (the full kata is [url=youtube.com/watch?v=SEeM2ZoRBC4&t=40s]here[/url].
_________________
5th kyu Shuri-Ryu, 4th kyu Judo, shodan Uechi-Ryu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2628
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)


This may be getting a bit off-topic, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory or confrontational, but I can't help but ask the question; what do you think kata were designed for, and why were they built the way they were?

If it was just for body control, awareness, and coordination, then why would they bother to design the kata the way they did? Gymnastics/acrobatics accomplish the same things--arguably far better--so why not simply do that? Weightlifting, too, has proven to have the same benefits. Seems like a waste of time to do kata if they have no other purpose, especially given the fact that the Okinawans who developed karate had plenty of access to both gymnastics/acrobatics and weightlifting, and many actually did those in addition to their kata. Kihon training also accomplish the same things, but the basics are essentially just movements already used in the kata, which you've already said aren't useful for application, which then brings the practice of basics into question, entirely.

What, then, makes karate a "martial" art, exactly? Sparring? The only sparring most karateka do, nowadays, was invented in the 1940's/50's, more-or-less, so that certainly doesn't get back to the intent of the art. I have seen it argued that the kata and kihon improve your sparring, but really, the skillsets used in the vast majority of modern kumite are completely different than the movements, postures, and mechanics you use in kata and kihon. That, again, begs the question of why not just do gymnastics/acrobatics or weightlifting while training sparring, if they essentially serve the same purpose as the kata and kihon, but more effectively? That's what modern competitive fighters tend to do, already, in fact.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
Karate Obsession | Arizona Practical Karate
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 380

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashworth wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
Kata is good for working up a sweat but its not going to win you a tournament.


Unless it's a kata Tournament?


It was a Terry Silver quote but I guess in this context, it doesn't work.
_________________
It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29324
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
Personally i think Kata is good for picking up body control and awareness of where your limbs are / how your weight is shifting etc. It is good for co-ordination etc too. I especially think it is good when you are having to perform it at a tempo that isn't your personal natural temp for performing a combination.

What i am not a huge fan of is the bunkai tbh. This will likely be controversial but it does seem rather contrived / shoehorned it often. It looks like take this technique in kata X, change it so it is a totally different technique and perform it like this. This is the application of the technique for fighting. No it isn't, it is a different technique that is superficially similar. It is especially apparent (in my view) with the 'hidden throws' etc that when performed look noticeably different to the technique performed in the kata

This isn't me saying the bunkai are not decent and are useless, just that they aren't in the kata (in my view!)


This is an interesting take, however, not the first time I've heard it, either.

I'm kind of the opposite; I really like finding some applications to apply to techniques from the forms. I don't know which one's you don't particularly care for, but I've seen some that are very similar to the techniques done as they are in the forms.

I take it you're not a fan of Iain Abernethy?
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29324
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an article I wrote back in 2007, talking about the practice of forms. Keep in mind, I was a much younger Martial Artist then, and had yet to be exposed to the idea of applications. Suffice it to say, I have grown as a Martial Artist since then, but I still think the article has some value.

What Forms Are Good For
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >