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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me give another example. Groin strikes. I have, in non-sporting encounters, kicked people in the groin and had it work like a charm. I have also, when I was ready for it, had people hit me there and it just ticked me off.
A lot of so called "dirty fighting" is about surprising your opponent and taking advantage of anatomical weak points and accurate technique to end it quickly. This is a fine thing. It DOES NOT get you out of the need to be able to fight skill-fully at all. A boxer can deliver an eye rake or a palm to the nose MUCH more effectively than someone who does not box because they have more practice at the gross body mechanics of hitting a target with a hand. As a Judo guy, I can use sneaky trips and small joint locks in a fight that people who have not grappled in earnest will not be able to make work due to balance disruption and adrenal stress.
I will repeat to re-iterate my point: Dirty tricks are NOT a substitute for fighting skill, but if you HAVE fighting skill, they can be a great aid to ending a non-sporting encounter quickly.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14298
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've a Toyota Camry...it weighs 2,600lbs...if after all that is said and done, and I've done all that I could to defend myself, but to no avail, I'll could use my car...it (the car) has, at that point, all of the style that I need. WHAM!!



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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1710

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fighting dirty" is a concept that comes from sport and the rules of sportsmanship. Fighting, the kind that is required when one is truly in danger is inherently dirty. In self-defense one uses whatever works best to minimize injury to oneself, stop the attack and allow escape from further harm.

At the risk of sounding cheesy, Bruce Lee (maybe others as well) said "If it works, who cares where it comes from?)
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2132


PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the technique fits the situation; then use it.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
If the technique fits the situation; then use it.


That's such a vague and subjective statement to make in the sense that it supports everything and nothing at the same time.

We're talking about why the technique doesn't fit the situation and why its very unlikely to succeed compared to other options available. You seem to argue that because something "might" work its therefore a good idea despite having extremely limited success.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
If the technique fits the situation; then use it.


That's such a vague and subjective statement to make in the sense that it supports everything and nothing at the same time.

We're talking about why the technique doesn't fit the situation and why its very unlikely to succeed compared to other options available. You seem to argue that because something "might" work its therefore a good idea despite having extremely limited success.


To be fair, if something is REALLY self-defense, and not fighting, then you really are usually behind the curve to begin with. In that situation, low percentage, high payoff moves tend to look more appealing.
In my humble opinion, if something HAS worked for you, then you should not discount it, but if you wish to be a skilled martial artist, it is necessary to explore WHY it worked, and WHEN and WHERE it might work in the future.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2132


PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there no Style in self defense?

Attackers don't use style they use opportunity.

Attackers don't take classes twice a week to learn how to be bad they use the element of surprise on unsuspecting people.

Awareness and preparedness intelligence, can go a long way in defensive situations and not any particular martial art style being better than another.

Attackers more often than not come up from behind or flank and not face to face as practiced for most martial art sport type confrontations.

Using slippery defensive movements in a struggle are very effective, very young children do this instinctively without any martial art training whatsoever.

I have used this slippery method of getting out of a situation while a knife was held to my throat; in my pre martial art days.

Had I tried to use a counter knife defence strike I would most certainly would have lost in this situation.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Is there no Style in self defense?

Attackers don't use style they use opportunity.

Attackers don't take classes twice a week to learn how to be bad they use the element of surprise on unsuspecting people.

Awareness and preparedness intelligence, can go a long way in defensive situations and not any particular martial art style being better than another.

Attackers more often than not come up from behind or flank and not face to face as practiced for most martial art sport type confrontations.

Using slippery defensive movements in a struggle are very effective, very young children do this instinctively without any martial art training whatsoever.

I have used this slippery method of getting out of a situation while a knife was held to my throat; in my pre martial art days.

Had I tried to use a counter knife defence strike I would most certainly would have lost in this situation.


Imagine that we're talking about swimming. There is a correct way and a not so correct way of swimming. It comes down to efficiency. Sure there are lots of ways to do it, but just because someone can tread water doesn't mean they're qualified to teach swimming or that they're even good at it.... follow me?
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2132


PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone was teaching water treading as swimming there would be many very disappointed students.

Yet treading water is a vital method of survival depending on the situation, not depending on a style but minimal movement.

Also relaxation can be a survival method, by floating on one's back, no style necessary.

So it seems there are vital ways of surviving in water with out the need for swimming styles.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough, but you wouldn't take someone deep sea diving who only knew how to tread water, and you wouldn't try to claim that someone who could only relax and tread water was an expert in swimming.

There are many people doing many things in the world, some of them getting paid for it, that they are not very good at. To go back to your example, attackers use the element of surprise, but because of that anyone who has spent time truly becoming aware of their surroundings, actually aware, not just paranoid and jumpy, almost immediately defeats most attacks before they ever begin.
Thus to attack such a person, you must become better at the element of surprise.
This becomes a cycle that eventually becomes various martial traditions and fighting systems throughout the world.
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