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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1935


PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Is there no style in self defense? Reply with quote

Is there no style in self defence?

I believe there is no style in self-defense situations but preparedness is all important.

I would like to put across an idea to all maists, something I'm calling "Umbrella SD Techniques"

For example, in a situation where as someone grabs a hold of you be it your wrist or throat or your coat collar, as long as you have one hand free, you can poke the attacker in the eye. Sure there are plenty of counter wrists locks and the like to be used but a simple finger jab in to the eye works wonders, without all the Aikido jitsu maneuvers.

We have been conditioned from childhood, as good children "Not" to poke another person in the eye because it I dangerous. Yet to be attacked by knife point, should be greeted with a carfully placed pleasant arm bar "Not"

There is absolutely no talent required in using a poke in the eye on an opponent, to get out of a physically restrained or a potencially dangerous position.

As martial artist we can love the art too much and forget the simple things that work without much fuss or fury.

Here are a few reminders:

Poke a finger in the opponent's eye.

Control the opponent by holding on to their ear.

A swift kick to the opponent's groin.

An open hand slap to the opponent's face.

A toe kick to the opponent's shinbone.

A foot stomp to the opponent's toes.

A quick blow to the opponent's nose using most any solid enough part of your own anatomy.

The Surprise Element Would Also Impove Your Chances Of Success.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 684
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the pieces of advice I will give the girl spawn when she is old enough is the same thing. Grab their head and squeeze your thumbs into their eyes until you feel popping and hear squishing. If things are that desperate then who cares if they get blinded as a result of their actions.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1935


PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input LLLEARNER

A few more add-ons:

Hair pulling on any part of the opponent's anatomy.

Biting your opponent if you are hungry enough to survive.

If all else fails tap your knuckles as hard as possible and as many times as possible on the opponent's chin, the same way that a very determined and persistent rent collector would do it to the front door of house, when the rent hadn't been payed for a substantial amount of time.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are simple principles that apply to self defense just on the basis of human anatomy... in short for any striking attack to be effective the attacker either needs to be in a strong position.

This is why striking techniques don't work to escape grappling problems. When someone does something simple like a headlock- your body and balance is compromised. No amount of "dirty fighting" will escape this hold.

That's the biggest problem I see with self defense. To me, eye gouges, groin strikes, and biting loosely translated mean "I don't know how to get out."

Biting? Humans have a pathetic bite force- we cant even break through denim with our teeth. I've had quite a few people attempt to bite me, and I've usually laughed while they did. Its terribly ineffective.

Eye gouging and groin grabbing- its not a "yes" or "no" but a matter of degree. I mean, someone need only close their eyes when gouged which is a quite natural response. Same applies with any groin strike. One needs to be a dominant position (on the feet or on the ground) to have any power for these techniques to have any merit whatsoever.

So does there need to be a "style?" Perhaps not, but that doesn't mean theres not a science to fighting...
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1935


PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about biting through denim but ears are very easy to take a chunk out of and are very painful on the receiving end; not a laughing matter, ask Mike Tyson's opponent's

Closing one's eyes when eye gouging doesn't stop the gouge from happening!

Groin strikes might be a bit hit or miss, but using groin attacks other than striking with the hand, foot or knee are also available it just takes getting past the obvious physiology aspects.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirty tricks are not a substitute for fundamental fighting skill.

That said, if you have a good grasp of timing, distance, body mechanics, aggression, adrenal management and most importantly situational awareness, then, and only then can you vastly multiply your effectiveness in a confrontation by understanding anatomical weak points and exploiting them viciously.

There are a lot of things banned in sporting competition because they will injure someone too severely to continue, however, in order for you to DO any of these things reliably you need a good fundamental grasp of the skills that a sport-fighter possesses.
No matter how nasty an eye-gouge is, or a finger lock, groin-strike, etc..., they do not work if you cannot deliver force to target against an intelligently resisting opponent under adrenal stress conditions while simultaneously defending what your opponent is doing.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 1935


PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Dirty tricks are not a substitute for fundamental fighting skill.

That said, if you have a good grasp of timing, distance, body mechanics, aggression, adrenal management and most importantly situational awareness, then, and only then can you vastly multiply your effectiveness in a confrontation by understanding anatomical weak points and exploiting them viciously.

There are a lot of things banned in sporting competition because they will injure someone too severely to continue, however, in order for you to DO any of these things reliably you need a good fundamental grasp of the skills that a sport-fighter possesses.
No matter how nasty an eye-gouge is, or a finger lock, groin-strike, etc..., they do not work if you cannot deliver force to target against an intelligently resisting opponent under adrenal stress conditions while simultaneously defending what your opponent is doing.
Dirty tricks to one person is an effective method for others.

Once upone a time, kicking was considered dirty fighting, now it's proven to be viable and acceptable!

The cossbow was outlawed for centuries because knights with heraldry and a life time of training, could easily be killed with a single flying dart by any untrained person; similar to an untrained person poking a martial artist in the eye with a one finger.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14145
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the style in SD is YOU!!

Survive however YOU need to!! Self Defense (SD) is within you, it's there, lying there dormant until you need it. It doesn't require you to abide by any core style and belief because it only needs you to act effectively in order to survive an attack.



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**Proof is on the floor!!!
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 684
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The eye poke is something I will teach my daughter when she is old enough to understand it responsibly. If attacked squeeze your thumbs into their eyes until you feel popping.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
I don't know about biting through denim but ears are very easy to take a chunk out of and are very painful on the receiving end; not a laughing matter, ask Mike Tyson's opponent's

Closing one's eyes when eye gouging doesn't stop the gouge from happening!

Groin strikes might be a bit hit or miss, but using groin attacks other than striking with the hand, foot or knee are also available it just takes getting past the obvious physiology aspects.


You're not completely understanding what we (myself and Tempest) are saying, so I'm going to try to further elaborate.

The chosen technique is less of a matter than the position its applied from. Tyson took a chunk out of Holyfields ear while they were in the clinch, no doubt it hurt him, but consider it didn't prevent him from fighting. Part of the reason why holyfield reacted the way he did was because it probably hurt like hell, and it was blatently illegal. Consider the following:

Attempt to bite someone when they're either mounted on your or on your back- any position where the person is on top of you. Its "cute" to say the least, one of those situations where you say "aww, you're trying to hurt me aren't you?"

Now if you're mounted on someone or on their back (in a dominant position) I can bite much more effectively because I have control of you and you don't of me.

So now lets talk choice of technique. In the clinch, Tyson chose to bite. What other options may he have had? He could have headbutt which on top of hurting like the bite does, would ALSO have possibility of knocking his opponent out, opening up a cut above his eye (which would allow holyfields blood to drip into his eye and blind him). He could have thrown elbows, just as effective as headbutt. Likewise with knees, which are more devastating. Finally he could have thrown him which pretty much becomes a knockout.

Now why didn't Holfield do any of these things? Because fighting in the clinch is illegal in boxing so holyfield didn't do it. To suggest that he'd be unable or unwilling to is obscene. They're called "dirty" tactics because if two fighters agree to not use something beforehand and then one of them goes back on their agreement, they're a dirty liar.

So when it comes down to it, you see how "dirty" techniques sure are an option and they can have an effect, but that effect is really only there to firmly establish the bottom of the barrel. Against any trained an competent fighter, it becomes the least of any viable technique to use.
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