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Trailer_Ape
Yellow Belt
Joined: 24 Apr 2017
Posts: 46
Location: Kansas
Styles: Funky and Fresh
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 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think the whole "it is not ok to hit a woman" came from a deeper concept: "it is not ok to dominate and abuse people." Being that women (traditionally) are at a greater risk of being dominated and abused, the concept was taken to a specific. It would be like a rule about "pets" but 90% of the pets are dogs, people would start to say - "it is not ok to XYZ dogs" even though the rule was intended to be more encompassing.
I've been a cop too long to really assign much value to gender. An attacker is an attacker, a victim is a victim. As for sparring, I would not go harder than my partner could handle regardless of their gender. I know guys I would not hit at 70% and I know girls who I wouldn't want hitting me at 70%
_________________
"I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine." ~ Bruce Lee |
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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My take on this.
In sport when participants understand the risk and willing enter the ring then game on.
In training, I follow the same philosophy. To not hit is disrespecting your opponent. They are coming to you willingly and should be treated with respect. Training usually has an understanding to not use full power, and I abide by that. If it is a smaller female I still want to make sure she has to work for victory.
In a defensive situation (assuming you are not the aggressor) then all bets are off. I look for escape if possible and use the least amount of force necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
I’m probably going to get myself in trouble here, and maybe this should be another thread, but here goes...
Between my first stint and my current training, I’ve got about 10 years of experience total. One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
I don’t know. I have no idea what I’m truly asking. Nor do I have any idea if there’s a genuine answer. It’s most likely me making it an issue where there truly isn’t one.
And am I the only guy who feels this way? I can’t be the only one, can I? |
I agree. I don't intentionally target the chest area (or groin on men), but incidental contact happens, and I feel there is usually that understanding.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 727
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| LLLEARNER wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
I’m probably going to get myself in trouble here, and maybe this should be another thread, but here goes...
Between my first stint and my current training, I’ve got about 10 years of experience total. One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
I don’t know. I have no idea what I’m truly asking. Nor do I have any idea if there’s a genuine answer. It’s most likely me making it an issue where there truly isn’t one.
And am I the only guy who feels this way? I can’t be the only one, can I? |
I agree. I don't intentionally target the chest area (or groin on men), but incidental contact happens, and I feel there is usually that understanding. |
I'm in the same camp as JR, problem is that with the "no headshot" rule it doesn't give many target options for a low kicker/striker like myself. Giving them a dead shoulder gets old real quick for both of us!!!
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"We don't have any money, so we will have to think" - Ernest Rutherford |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Forgive me, but why are female students given any special preference when it comes to the MA, specifically whenever the subject is in the line of Kumite??!!??
A student is a student, nothing more, no matter the gender, no matter the practitioners mindset concerning the pause, the delay, the second-guessing, or whatever label one wants to hang from it, of hitting a female student.
Whether it be a drill or Kumite or what have you, a target is a target, no matter where, and/or whom that said target is attached to or to whom. I can't forgive a student for not taking advantage of said target if that said target is giving one an effective opportunity. If the target is the chest, for example, then so be it, I'll strike her chest without any ambiguity whatsoever, I'll not feel uncomfortable or whatever else because the target must be destroyed, and I've not the inclination and/or reservation to be concerned with where the target might be on the human anatomy.
Yes, I was raised to not ever hit a woman, no matter how archaic it might or might not seem. However, in the course of becoming an effective MAist, one might have to attack said targets that one prefers to avoid at any cost, for whatever the reason(s) might or might not be, and once again, hesitation is an evil enemy of effectiveness that has no prudent resolve.
Yes, it's a female...a woman...a girl...NO IT'S NOT...IT'S THE ATTACKER...THE ENEMY!! Treat the attacker as though that attacker is cloaked in some type of secret protective force field, then that hesitation is all any attacker, even an attacking female/woman/girl, needs to gain an advantage.
I have never hit a woman/female/girl; just the person that's before me!! I don't see the gender; only the person that's before me!! It is that person that stands before me that I must deal with, and I will deal with that person with the most harshest resolve I can muster!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Forgive me, but why are female students given any special preference when it comes to the MA, specifically whenever the subject is in the line of Kumite??!!??
A student is a student, nothing more, no matter the gender, no matter the practitioners mindset concerning the pause, the delay, the second-guessing, or whatever label one wants to hang from it, of hitting a female student.
Whether it be a drill or Kumite or what have you, a target is a target, no matter where, and/or whom that said target is attached to or to whom. I can't forgive a student for not taking advantage of said target if that said target is giving one an effective opportunity. If the target is the chest, for example, then so be it, I'll strike her chest without any ambiguity whatsoever, I'll not feel uncomfortable or whatever else because the target must be destroyed, and I've not the inclination and/or reservation to be concerned with where the target might be on the human anatomy. |
I don't think it's special preference, more about accommodating different people. Speaking to some female TKD friends recently and some of the bigger women were saying it does hurt in the chest to be hit there. Thing is it's not muscle and can't be conditioned or tensed like the abdomen might be. Not far off being kicked in the groin for a man. Whilst a target is a target I think you can moderate what you're doing to accommodate the student. Like if someone has a dodgy shoulder, whilst I might go through the motions to apply a lock, I'm not going to crank it full force because they have to go to work in the morning and be back at training the next day.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Trailer_Ape
Yellow Belt
Joined: 24 Apr 2017
Posts: 46
Location: Kansas
Styles: Funky and Fresh
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure if someone already said this and maybe I missed it but -
Taking it easier on a partner because they are female is an injustice to them. If she knows you are doing it, it is an insult. If she does not know, it is dangerous because the person doing it is helping the female develop a false sense of being prepared. If/when she gets attacked for real, all of her "training" will be useless.
I'm sure most of us here know the old saying "Train hard fight easy". Well female have the right to apply that logic too.
_________________
"I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine." ~ Bruce Lee |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Forgive me, but why are female students given any special preference when it comes to the MA, specifically whenever the subject is in the line of Kumite??!!??
A student is a student, nothing more, no matter the gender, no matter the practitioners mindset concerning the pause, the delay, the second-guessing, or whatever label one wants to hang from it, of hitting a female student.
Whether it be a drill or Kumite or what have you, a target is a target, no matter where, and/or whom that said target is attached to or to whom. I can't forgive a student for not taking advantage of said target if that said target is giving one an effective opportunity. If the target is the chest, for example, then so be it, I'll strike her chest without any ambiguity whatsoever, I'll not feel uncomfortable or whatever else because the target must be destroyed, and I've not the inclination and/or reservation to be concerned with where the target might be on the human anatomy. |
I don't think it's special preference, more about accommodating different people. Speaking to some female TKD friends recently and some of the bigger women were saying it does hurt in the chest to be hit there. Thing is it's not muscle and can't be conditioned or tensed like the abdomen might be. Not far off being kicked in the groin for a man. Whilst a target is a target I think you can moderate what you're doing to accommodate the student. Like if someone has a dodgy shoulder, whilst I might go through the motions to apply a lock, I'm not going to crank it full force because they have to go to work in the morning and be back at training the next day. |
I do accommodate students? How so? CONTROL!! I will not tolerate attacking without control that's not measured. That is to mean that contact has to be controlled and measured whilst on the floor at all times.
If the chest is the target, then USE MEASURED CONTROL; arrest the technique(s) just short of contact; Sun-dome, stopping a technique just prior to contact, about a hairs breath away from contacting said target. I accept anything except not attacking any said target because their decision is gender driven.
Being target selective driven based on gender might cause unwarranted hesitation. Don't want to hit a female, especially in the chest...don't want to hit a man, especially in the groin...fine...THEN USE CONTROL BY ARRESTING THE TECHNIQUE(S) JUST SHORT OF CONTACT TO SAID TARGET!!
Wear proper safety equipment...chest protector...groin cup...if not, then learn how not to get hit...learn how to deflect/block...learn how to avoid attacks...learn how to not be where the attack is...something...BUT LEARN!!
We all know that no matter what, all contact can't be avoided, hence, an accidental contact. Intentional contact with resolve wont be tolerated in my dojo...ever!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
I’m probably going to get myself in trouble here, and maybe this should be another thread, but here goes...
Between my first stint and my current training, I’ve got about 10 years of experience total. One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
I don’t know. I have no idea what I’m truly asking. Nor do I have any idea if there’s a genuine answer. It’s most likely me making it an issue where there truly isn’t one.
And am I the only guy who feels this way? I can’t be the only one, can I? |
I've been there before. It can be a conflict for guys at times, to either hit there and try not to feel weird for doing it, or hit them there, and risk someone taking offense. I was this way a lot more when I sparred without chest protectors. If the female is wearing a chest protector, then I don't feel quite as bad about it.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
I’m probably going to get myself in trouble here, and maybe this should be another thread, but here goes...
Between my first stint and my current training, I’ve got about 10 years of experience total. One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
I don’t know. I have no idea what I’m truly asking. Nor do I have any idea if there’s a genuine answer. It’s most likely me making it an issue where there truly isn’t one.
And am I the only guy who feels this way? I can’t be the only one, can I? |
I've been there before. It can be a conflict for guys at times, to either hit there and try not to feel weird for doing it, or hit them there, and risk someone taking offense. I was this way a lot more when I sparred without chest protectors. If the female is wearing a chest protector, then I don't feel quite as bad about it. |
Adult women are allowed to wear them but not required to do so. Teens and younger girls are required.
Actually, I don’t think any women in the dojo wear them. I’ve overheard a few talking about sports bras they put plastic protectors in, but that’s about it.
It’s just an awkward feeling I have. Thinking more about it, I feel far more awkward with a lower rank woman than an upper rank. I haven’t had any complaints nor have I doubled someone over in pain from it, so I’m pretty sure it’s just my issue. But I don’t want to be “that guy.” |
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on the post.
