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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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Shizentai
Green Belt
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 417
Styles: karate
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 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Interesting comments everyone!
| JR 137 wrote: |
One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
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As a female, breast contact has never really bothered me. We bump them into stuff and people all day long, so it's nothing new. The sensation of a breast strike is annoying, but not incapacitating like the reaction a man has to testicular trauma. Besides, the nipple area is not really the most effective target. If a man who is doing partner work with me seems like he is particularly targeting my breasts instead of the solar plexus or throat, my first thought is that he doesn't realize he's off target, not "oh that creep" or something like that. This is my view.
As for the more central discussion of the thread, I think the phrase "A man should never hit a woman" is most wrong because it is one of many statements about gender roles in our society that disregard the importance of consent and individuality. By becoming a martial artist I consent to being hit. This is my individual life decision to pursue this path, and being allowed to punch me does not necessarily allow anyone to punch other women. Each person's decision on this must be their own. By the same token, refraining from hitting other women outside of the dojo does not necessitate that I not be punched in the dojo. Women, like everyone else, are individual people with separate needs.
_________________
"My work itself is my best signature."
-Kawai Kanjiro |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Shizentai wrote: |
Interesting comments everyone!
| JR 137 wrote: |
One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
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As a female, breast contact has never really bothered me. We bump them into stuff and people all day long, so it's nothing new. The sensation of a breast strike is annoying, but not incapacitating like the reaction a man has to testicular trauma. Besides, the nipple area is not really the most effective target. If a man who is doing partner work with me seems like he is particularly targeting my breasts instead of the solar plexus or throat, my first thought is that he doesn't realize he's off target, not "oh that creep" or something like that. This is my view.
As for the more central discussion of the thread, I think the phrase "A man should never hit a woman" is most wrong because it is one of many statements about gender roles in our society that disregard the importance of consent and individuality. By becoming a martial artist I consent to being hit. This is my individual life decision to pursue this path, and being allowed to punch me does not necessarily allow anyone to punch other women. Each person's decision on this must be their own. By the same token, refraining from hitting other women outside of the dojo does not necessitate that I not be punched in the dojo. Women, like everyone else, are individual people with separate needs. |
That, is a well-put post, Shizentai. Great points.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Shizentai wrote: |
Interesting comments everyone!
| JR 137 wrote: |
One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
|
As a female, breast contact has never really bothered me. We bump them into stuff and people all day long, so it's nothing new. The sensation of a breast strike is annoying, but not incapacitating like the reaction a man has to testicular trauma. Besides, the nipple area is not really the most effective target. If a man who is doing partner work with me seems like he is particularly targeting my breasts instead of the solar plexus or throat, my first thought is that he doesn't realize he's off target, not "oh that creep" or something like that. This is my view.
As for the more central discussion of the thread, I think the phrase "A man should never hit a woman" is most wrong because it is one of many statements about gender roles in our society that disregard the importance of consent and individuality. By becoming a martial artist I consent to being hit. This is my individual life decision to pursue this path, and being allowed to punch me does not necessarily allow anyone to punch other women. Each person's decision on this must be their own. By the same token, refraining from hitting other women outside of the dojo does not necessitate that I not be punched in the dojo. Women, like everyone else, are individual people with separate needs. |
Great post Shizentai. "Consent to hit" is a great way of putting it.
How do you deal men coming into the dojo and going easy on you or just plain refusing to spar you because you're female? Personally I've only had it happen a handful of times and its frustrating to say the least. Usually I'll just hit them hard and see what they do in response.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Shizentai
Green Belt
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 417
Styles: karate
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| How do you deal men coming into the dojo and going easy on you or just plain refusing to spar you because you're female? Personally I've only had it happen a handful of times and its frustrating to say the least. Usually I'll just hit them hard and see what they do in response. |
This is indeed a very frustrating situation. When this happens, I tend to put pressure on my opponent until he has no choice but to be serious with me, including taking his legs out from under him if need be. I find this to be an effective disincentive to being unrealistic in partner work with me. I think there is also nothing wrong with telling a partner "contact is ok" so long as it's not a distracting conversation during class. A man refusing to fight me is something I don't encounter much, but I allow it. If a man doesn't want to learn how to deal with female attackers, it's his loss in my opinion, not mine. I'd spar my other male and female friends and move on with my life.
The thing that really drives me up a wall though is when a male opponent loses a match to me, then says "oh, yeah, but I was fighting a girl so I had to let her win." That's kindergarten stuff. Leave it at home. We don't have time for that.
_________________
"My work itself is my best signature."
-Kawai Kanjiro |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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In all of my days, I've seen men/boys go easy on women/girls because of their mistaken acceptance that the female is of the weaker of the two. It sickens me to witness these type of acts because these acts are unwarranted. How is any student going to learn effectiveness if they're treated as though their a fragile flower that's meant to be coddled and protected?? Their not going to learn anything effective, whatsoever!!
Worried to hit a women?? GET OFF MY FLOOR until you can learn that the person in front of you overrides anything else. "I'm afraid to hit women in their chest; it's inappropriate!!" To my students, please get over yourself, and do it quickly, or get off my floor immediately, if you were one of my bashful men/boy students. Women will make field goal attempts with your groin at the very first opportunity with such resolve; you men better learn how to deflect/receive the attack much better or that fragile flower will make a 3-point field goal with your you know what's, and she won't bat an eyelash one bit!!
"Ah, she's so cute; I can't hit her!!" Well, she's not saying the same thing about you men/boys; not in the slightest.
"When there is an opportunity, I do not strike, 'it' strikes all by itself!!" ~ Bruce Lee
Now do it with the person that's standing before you without hesitation!! If not, it'll be your own fault when you're singing 12 octaves higher and your prostrated on the floor. Perhaps that's when the true AHA moment arrives.
Imho!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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advfhorn
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 61
Location: NJ - USA
Styles: Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| I am 41 years old and have been training for about 5 years. In the last 5 years I have had a lot of issues with my shoulders. When the guys hit me (even when I am holding a pad) I know they contact me lighter. If I am okay with harder, I tell them. The higher belts come at me very quick and controlled and then tap light. I know they punch my husband's pad harder. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Shizentai wrote: |
Interesting comments everyone!
| JR 137 wrote: |
One thing that’s always made me uncomfortable is hitting women in the chest during sparring. I’ve never had a complaint about it and honestly can’t recall a single time when I caused obvious pain by doing so. I don’t intentionally go after it, but if that’s the only opening I have, I take it.
I’m not any more comfortable with it today than I was with it my first time sparring. I feel like I’m taking advantage of an inherent weak/painful spot. I feel like if the only opening I gave was my groin, sparring partners wouldn’t target it, so why am I doing something along the same lines? And if it’s a repeated target during a round, I feel like that woman may think I’m either doing it to take advantage or grope, or something else that’s flat out untrue. But if they did feel that way, I’d completely understand why even though it’s not correct.
Any women on the board want to weigh in on this?
|
As a female, breast contact has never really bothered me. We bump them into stuff and people all day long, so it's nothing new. The sensation of a breast strike is annoying, but not incapacitating like the reaction a man has to testicular trauma. Besides, the nipple area is not really the most effective target. If a man who is doing partner work with me seems like he is particularly targeting my breasts instead of the solar plexus or throat, my first thought is that he doesn't realize he's off target, not "oh that creep" or something like that. This is my view.
As for the more central discussion of the thread, I think the phrase "A man should never hit a woman" is most wrong because it is one of many statements about gender roles in our society that disregard the importance of consent and individuality. By becoming a martial artist I consent to being hit. This is my individual life decision to pursue this path, and being allowed to punch me does not necessarily allow anyone to punch other women. Each person's decision on this must be their own. By the same token, refraining from hitting other women outside of the dojo does not necessitate that I not be punched in the dojo. Women, like everyone else, are individual people with separate needs. |
Great post Shizentai. "Consent to hit" is a great way of putting it.
How do you deal men coming into the dojo and going easy on you or just plain refusing to spar you because you're female? Personally I've only had it happen a handful of times and its frustrating to say the least. Usually I'll just hit them hard and see what they do in response. |
Well I know some might think me a neanderthal but I don't treat women (at least in the Dojo) any differently than the men. I think about it this way; if you came to train then my job is to train you.
I find no benefit to women if you take it easy or do not treat them like the men. Yes they are different, yes they have different parts, but when it comes down to it I want my female students to be able to handle themselves so that if some (can't say it here) try's to attack them they can destroy them and go home to their families. This to me is the most important job of any teacher of the MA's.
I can't understand how taking it easy on anyone, no matter the sex, benefits them.
Outside of the Dojo, yes I was brought up to be a gentleman and I open doors, stand when they leave the table, give them my coat/jacket if it's cold, etc. and treat them with the utmost respect. (I know, I'm old and this is out of fashion these days but I can't see changing) I couldn't imagine hitting a women outside of the Dojo but inside... If you came to learn and train then you are no different than anyone else and you must have the realistic expectation that you will occasionally get hit. Special treatment... look elsewhere.
I'm sure others will disagree but to me the most important job we have as instructors is to teach our students so that they can defend themselves if their lives are on the line. Train like you fight, fight like you train.
If you take it easy in the Dojo you'll be destroyed on the streets. This doesn't mean I send students home with shiners, it means I train them exactly like the men. No exceptions.
No special treatment on the street so no special treatment in the Dojo. If a women wants to train and really wants to learn how to defend themselves it's been my experience that they appreciate this mentality. If they don't they go elsewhere or find another activity.
If a woman comes for the sole purpose to learn how to defend themselves if attacked and you pull punches and take it easy on them, what do they learn and how prepared do you think they are? IMHO they aren't.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
In all of my days, I've seen men/boys go easy on women/girls because of their mistaken acceptance that the female is of the weaker of the two. It sickens me to witness these type of acts because these acts are unwarranted. How is any student going to learn effectiveness if they're treated as though their a fragile flower that's meant to be coddled and protected?? Their not going to learn anything effective, whatsoever!!
Worried to hit a women?? GET OFF MY FLOOR until you can learn that the person in front of you overrides anything else. "I'm afraid to hit women in their chest; it's inappropriate!!" To my students, please get over yourself, and do it quickly, or get off my floor immediately, if you were one of my bashful men/boy students. Women will make field goal attempts with your groin at the very first opportunity with such resolve; you men better learn how to deflect/receive the attack much better or that fragile flower will make a 3-point field goal with your you know what's, and she won't bat an eyelash one bit!!
"Ah, she's so cute; I can't hit her!!" Well, she's not saying the same thing about you men/boys; not in the slightest.
"When there is an opportunity, I do not strike, 'it' strikes all by itself!!" ~ Bruce Lee
Now do it with the person that's standing before you without hesitation!! If not, it'll be your own fault when you're singing 12 octaves higher and your prostrated on the floor. Perhaps that's when the true AHA moment arrives.
Imho!! |
I just fell out of my chair laughing. I agree with you but man do you paint a descriptive (and hilarious) picture with your words.
Too funny! You're killing me!
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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This issue goes much deeper than “not hitting a woman”. It is just one of the manifestations of socialization blocks which must be overridden if one expects to train in a realistic way to face another person attacking with intent.
Women and girls often have a similar obstacle because in many societies, it is not considered appropriate for a “good/nice” girl to hit. Both of these ideas are learned and ingrained from an early age, starting with the home environment. That is why they can take time to override. It should be considered like any other bad habit. With a little effort, it can be changed. |
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on the post.
