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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14338
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that the MA are as interchangeable as socks are for human consumption; just the methodology and ideology differs.



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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKD didn't just "adopt" the kata system, it was used because those who practiced Karate or Chuan Fa brought the katas they learned with them to Korea when they founded their Kwans. The Taekyon of today is a revival art, and I don't believe even it is what Taekyon once was.
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truejim
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Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Posts: 32
Location: Virginia
Styles: Kukkiwon/WTF

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
Japanese influence on Korean martial arts are more than obvious. Those who question it still often do it because of some political or cultural agenda.


Agreed. Especially the part about people having an agenda.

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
For centuries Korea, China and Japan have had cultural and commercial ties which brought many exchanges and parallel developments in many fields.


Also agreed. I think people get too caught up in who invented what first. The history of Asia is one of shifting borders, rising and falling dynasties, military conquests, and frequent trade. It was cultural soup, all these cultures influencing one another. In addition, for much of that history, many of these countries weren't even countries, so to say China/Korea/Japan simplifies (understandably) that those nations didn't even exist for much of the time period under discussion.

I would also add that I think Buddhist philosophy had a big influence on Asian martial arts (the concept of the spiritual warrior providing a philosophical basis for the serious study of martial arts), so you can even include India in that soup.

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
It is best to understand as a cycle with influence moving from China to Korea and Okinawa and then from Okinawa to Japan and back to Korea again.


I think that's a good summary.
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wilberbear
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Joined: 12 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will just post what I posted on some other forum.




1. The people who are skeptical of Taekkyeon's modern format are the ones who didn't do their homeworks. Taekyun has been historically recorded in 1930’s Korean newspapers such as Dongailbo in terms of its references & techniques particularly towards Muyedobotongji textbook published in the medieval era. Duk-ki Song’s lineage also has always taught Taekyun to be “learning Yetbub (which hits with any body part including punches)” while sparring with wrestling with kicking. He didn’t come out of nowhere. Newspapers have recorded it. Medieval textbooks have recorded it. It is not that no one else other than Song knew Taekyun. He was one of the few who just bothered to teach & spread it. North Korea also recorded of other martial arts like Kyuksul, Nalparam, etc. I don’t know what you mean by Dukgi Song showing only low kick. His textbook shows other kicks. Also, early 1900’s Taekyun records recorded both low kick, middle kick, high kick such as a poetry in Haedongjookji.
2. I was not intentionally derailing the post. I am sorry. I was just glossing over something, then you challenged it. So, I am just feeding you information. As for the “reverse punch”, when are the photos from? So, what’s your point? That punch didn’t exist in 1922 but was added “right after”? The point is how Korean always had that punch like in the picture number 7 Joongdanpyunse on the Muyedobotongji link published in the medieval era. For Karate? Not so much in 1922. That page has “many punches”. You missed it. Let’s make a new post on this.
Korean military had the ranking system that differentiated the ranks by the colors of the belts. Korean civilians wore white pants & white shirt (often without a ribbon in the chest). You do have to wonder where Judo’s “uniform” came from when it doesn’t resemble Japanese at all. Not to mention Judo being quite different from Jiujitsu but far similar to Taekyun wrestling (Taekyun learns Kwonbub but spars in wrestling with kicking) & Xilem wrestling.
3. No, Breaking wasn’t Kung Fu nor Qiqong. It was Strongman Feat that existed in Korea as well as even in Europe & America. I was “glossing over” while explaining how Karate didn’t have a roundhouse kick as well as many other things today which pose as traditional when they were newly added.
4. Kihapsul is not a long dead Korean art. Charyuk, Kooksundo, Kihapsul have always been passed down. They just don’t really advertise; Korea is just not well known; you just didn’t do your homeworks; Karate tends to avoid mentioning the history of Breaking introduced to Karate.
As far as I know, Karate has square shoulder. As far as I know, when Breaking, you push shoulder not to mention the other body parts being different according to the Tameshiwari diagram in Mas Oyama’s book “Mas Oyama’s Essential Karate”. Also, as the links I provided say, Karate has low PSI.
5. Korean martial arts didn't die with Japanese invasion. They are just not well known. They have always existed & have always been active & have always been recorded even up to 1930's. Kyuksul was never lost in time. Nalparam, Taekyun Yetbub (Taekyun Yetbub is Kwonbub recorded in Muyedobotongji), Kyuksul always existed both in North Korea & South Korea in many different names in any era including 1930's.
http://newslibrary.naver.com/viewer/...lishType=00020
The important part is that this newspaper is from 1930 04 03, & it clearly talks about Taekyun & Yetbub which is Kwonbub. The same goes for Nalparam, Kyuksul, etc other names. Also, it listed the names of the Taekyun Yetbub techniques which are from Muyedobotongji. Whether you can read Korean or not, I am just telling you that's the fact & there are proofs published 100 years ago. Korea is not well known; those facts are not well known; those sports are not well known; but they have always been recorded. The same people doubting Taekyun's format being real or not also didn't read this newspaper. They didn't do homeworks.
6. Neither Taekyun (including Yetbub) nor Taekwondo really emphasize kicking nor slapping. Historical records recorded Subak to be Baekta & Kwonbub. Just like the name Kwonbub means "fist way" in a generic word while still kicking, Subak also hit with any body part including punches. They learn the whole sets; they just spar in a particular way.
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wilberbear
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Joined: 12 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am just making this bonus fact clear. Korean had all fist shapes including horizontal fist shapes as historically been photographed & drawn in pictures in sports (including 1920's Gitxaum) & in street fighting.

Also, horizontal fist (pronate hand, the back of the hand facing up) is the natural fist shape. Vertical fist is the unnatural fist shape. If you stand dropping your arms down loose, the back of the hand faces front. This is because your elbow is not downward when you are not forcing it to be downward. Your elbow is rather sideways & outward. You can also clearly see your elbow crease (the opposite side of the elbow joint) being rather diagonal in angle instead of horizontally flat. The elbow is outside, not downward. Your pinky finger is connected with a straight bone to the elbow. This is why when you dig ground, you dig up & down instead of side to side. It is just that much more natural.

The only thing Taekwondo (YMCA 18ki Kwonbub Club) got out of mixing with Karate gyms is pretty much the Kata culture. As for the important techniques, they are recorded even in Korean Kwonbub textbooks written & drawn 300 years ago including the reverse punch or the blocks. As for the civilian version Taekyun & Yetbub (even recorded in the 1930's newspapers, listing Taekyun techniques), they are more different from that version particularly with having more kicks (while still having the same rules, having hand techniques & so on) than what was formalized 300 years ago (recorded to have various kicks in Haedongjookji with poetry). Also, even Kooksundo, Charyuk & Kihapsul have always existed & have always been recorded in newspapers in any era whether you did homework or not.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taekwondo didn't exist in that name, but Taekyun & Yetbub existed. Taekyun is a wrestling game with kicking, & they also teach how to punch & fight called Yetbub. Similar to the structure of Taekwondo, they learned how to hit with any body part; they could do it; they just sparred in a different way. However, Taekyun & Yetbub were not really well known. So, like I said, it is likely from Taekwondo (Kwonbub) instead of Taekyun & Yetbub. Or Muaythai or Savate.

Korean always has taught an art called Kwonbub (also called Kenpo) that is even made into a textbook in the medieval era. It was also called 18ki Kwonbub. It was mostly taught in the military but was also taught in the civilians. Among them, YMCA Kwonbub Club existed. This mixed with some Karate gyms to be Taekwondo later. So, Taekwondo didn't exist in that name, but 18ki Kwonbub existed even back then.

http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2&sub=22

Number 7 picture on the left has the reverse punch.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. We knew how Taekyun looked. 1930’s newspapers on Taekyun referenced Taekyun to Muyedobotongji published 300 years ago. That has pictures. Aside from “what other techniques were in Taekyun”, “at least” the pictures in Muyedobotongji Kwonbub is solid to have existed in Taekyun. This includes the reverse punch & blocks. Those pictures were drawn 300 years ago. Whether poorly drawn or not, it is visible enough. Other than Muyedobotongji & street fighting (photos & pictures), Korea was not lucky enough to be photographed & videoed. Still, there are “enough” records visually. Also, Dukgi Song was around even from the 50’s. He had been exhibiting & teaching for a long time. There are his textbook, photos, pictures, videos. Before Song’s era? Muyedoboongji pictures are the best “reference” that Taekyun has. It is good enough. Taekwondo originates from YMCA Kwonbub which was recorded 18ki. This is the formalized version of Taekyun, the one on Muyedobotongji. Of course they should look similar. Taekyun techniques were historically described other than in Muyedobotongji. Dukgi Song’s techniques match what’s on Muyedobotongji or what’s been described. Most importantly, things like reverse punch & blocks? Always solidly existed. Kyuksul is not fake; it looks similar to Taekyun Yetbub. North Korea had Nalparam, another version.
2. For the reverse punch in Muyedobotongji, see number 7 picture on the left. One hand is in the waist while fingers point top. The other fist is punching with a horizontal fist. As for the blocks, they look pretty clear. I have seen 1922’s Funakoshi Book roughly.
3. Breaking was mentioned “while” describing how Karate “could have upgraded” & copied from the others. Also, Kihapsul, Charyuk, Kooksundo was never dead. Whatever decade you name, I can show you a newspaper record (like 30’s, 40’s, 70’s) talking such.

Charyuk, Kihapsul, Kooksundo (originally known as Sundo or Sunsul) was never long dead. It has a record in any era. Charyuk has shown Breaking in newspaper even in 1930's. 1934 11 18 newspaper on Hand Breaking of beer bottle & roof tiles.
http://newslibrary.naver.com/viewer/index.nhn?articleId=1934111800209102008&editNo=2&printCount=1&publishDate=1934-11-18&officeId=00020&pageNo=2&printNo=5012&publishType=00010

Kooksundo has shown Breaking on Japanese Fuji TV even in the 70's. Korean Breaking is superior than Japanese (as Oyama was not properly trained in Kihapsul but only imitated inferiorly). Korean breaks 15cm or 6inch rock. The rock is genuine, confirmed by Fuji TV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqXmbg7RtbY


Kooksundo, Charyuk, Kihapsul still exist even today.
http://www.kouksundo.com/

This magazine article also talks about Charyuk & Kwangju Hong breaking 7 bricks.
http://www.mookas.com/media_view.asp?news_no=10915
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Spartacus Maximus
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be slightly more productive to compare systems of the same time period. The karate brought to Japan by Funakoshi and his peers in the early 1900 was already different from what was practised by those who remained in Okinawa. By 1922, it was again different from the original.

Modern Korean arts originating in the early 20th century might be Korean but the Japanese influence is absolutely undeniable. As undeniable and obvious as the Chinese influence on karate in Okinawa and nearly every system that came out of East Asia.
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truejim
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Joined: 30 Oct 2014
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Location: Virginia
Styles: Kukkiwon/WTF

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
Modern Korean arts originating in the early 20th century might be Korean but the Japanese influence is absolutely undeniable. As undeniable and obvious as the Chinese influence on karate in Okinawa and nearly every system that came out of East Asia.


Here's a really good article on the topic: http://www.kidokwan.org/articles/the-evolution-of-taekwondo-from-japanese-karate/ Lots of supporting references.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

truejim wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
Modern Korean arts originating in the early 20th century might be Korean but the Japanese influence is absolutely undeniable. As undeniable and obvious as the Chinese influence on karate in Okinawa and nearly every system that came out of East Asia.


Here's a really good article on the topic: http://www.kidokwan.org/articles/the-evolution-of-taekwondo-from-japanese-karate/ Lots of supporting references.

Good find! Thank you, truejim!!



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