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brickshooter
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Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 443


PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started with TKD, then migrated to several Japanese styles. It was very obvious to me that these were cousin systems. Individual Techniques, kata, and even how classes were conducted. Warms ups, followed up with kihon, then kata, then kumite, in that order.

So despite what was taught in the dojangs re history, it is my opinion that TKD originated from Karate, Shotokan in particular.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1723

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shotokan is most certainly the main influence on TKD and similar systems. The founders of these were Korean karateka. This is not to deny that there are influenced from elsewhere, but the Japanese Shotokan connection is the strongest and most obvious. What the Koreans did was essentially adapt karate for their own purposes, just as the Japanese had done a generation or two after Okinawans introduced Karate there.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14406
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
Shotokan is most certainly the main influence on TKD and similar systems. The founders of these were Korean karateka. This is not to deny that there are influenced from elsewhere, but the Japanese Shotokan connection is the strongest and most obvious. What the Koreans did was essentially adapt karate for their own purposes, just as the Japanese had done a generation or two after Okinawans introduced Karate there.

Solid post!!



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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Killing Art by Alex Gillis is a great resource that everyone interested in the history of TKD should check out.

The upshot:

The founders of TKD had black belts in Shotokan Karate. They received notariety in their skill while applying it during the Korean and Vietnam wars (it was used to "kill communists!") When trying to sell it to the Korean military, the founders pitched it as an ancient Korean art. They changed some things up a bit (execution of some techniques, adding some techniques, and added several, more complicated kicks.)

Modern day WTF doesn't relect the Japanese influence as much as Tang Soo Do. I haven't had much exposure to ITF, so I cannot speak with any confidence about it.

Ultimately, it seems that all of the Asian martial arts have had influence over one another through the years, and I expect that will change, as travel and communication are easier now more than ever.
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JazzKicker
Orange Belt
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Joined: 07 Aug 2017
Posts: 128
Location: NJ
Styles: JKD, TSD, MMA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These origin stories can be convoluted, and sometimes contentious, particularly with the Korean arts.

I started out with Shito-Ryu, one of the 4 main Japanese styles. When I went off to college, I joined a Tang Soo Do club. Coincidentally enough, the forms were practically the same, though the kicks were much more elaborate. The official history, though, was TSD's roots were over 2000 years old, from the Chinese mainland. Years later I found out this was...incorrect.. The reality was, Hwang Kee eventually admitted he learned the forms from a Japanese book on Shotokan.

Years later, I was fortunate to train with Do Ju Nim Ji, Han Jae, who many consider (including himself) the founder of Hapkido. He had learned Yul Sul from Yong Sul Choi, a Korean who was taken to Japan during the occupation. Choi claimed to have learned Aiki-jujitsu while in Japan.

GM Ji claimed to be the first person to use the name Hapkido, also claimed he added spins kicks. Of course, people argue these claims.

Both these arts, as examples, are Korean in origin, from the 1950's. But the lineage is intertwined with Japanese influence.
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OneKickWonder
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hapkido and aikido have the same meaning linguistically. The both translate as something like unifying energy way, referring to how they fundamentally work. They don't try to put force against force. Instead the defender will merge with the attack and then steer it to his own will.

So is hapkido a rip off of aikido?

I don't think there's a quick answer to that. But I think we can start by asking, what is aikido?

The founder of aikido was a former soldier and traditional martial arts enthusiast. He was well versed in the classic arts like kendo and jujitsu. But as a soldier he was also well trained in more modern (at the time) combat skills. Word is, he was a brutal man in his day.

As he grew older, he looked more to the spiritual aspect of things, and decided martial arts should be good to develop body and mind, while also giving skill for self defence, but without causing permanent injury or death. So he took all he knew from all his styles, chucked out the offensive moves, and focused on defence as well as the art of movement.

So aikido is Japanese, in that it was a Japanese man who compiled it from all he'd learned.

But a great deal of aikido can be seen in tai chi. Which is of course Chinese. So is it a rip off of tai chi? Again, the waters are muddy. China and Japan have traded for centuries. They've fought a few times too. They both influence each other. A big part of tai chi is of course qigong, the meditation and movement aspect. Japan and Korea have kigong, which is the same thing exactly. Did they copy each other, or did they all figure out, along with Indians and Persians and everyone else they interacted with that this is a good healthy meditation practice?

So what of hapkido? Well it's pretty much Korean aikido except it's not. Sure it shares principles and techniques, but hapkido is still a hard style whereas aikido is more a soft / internal style like tai chi.

And of course hapkido will be influenced by aikido, but given that Korea is next to China, aikido takes from tai chi, and tai chi is Chinese, I don't think it's too hard to imagine that hapkido might also take influence from Chinese arts directly.

What of tang soo do. The way of the Chinese hand. Incidentally an old term for karate was tang te. Same translation as tang soo. So perhaps both styles are one and the same. I believe they are. But tang soo will of course have its own Korean influence.

All in all, I don't believe the Korean arts are a straight rip off of Japanese arts, but of course they are heavily influenced. Political history makes it impossible for them not to be.

Which brings us nicely to politics.

The Japanese occupied Korea for more than 40 years, and in that time tried hard to destroy Korean cultural heritage. So when they left, it's only fair that Korea wanted to rebuild it's own identity. Korean karate became tang soo do, and later, the state commissioned the official creation of taekwondo. The name was a deliberate attempt to distance their art from karate (because the old name for karate was tang te, same as the Korean tang soo). The government summoned leading martial artists and asked them to create a unified style that would outshine Japanese karate.

On that note, traditional karate is not very showy. Kicks are very much secondary, with all focus on close range hand strikes. But it is awesomely effective. So how do you outshine karate and at the same time distance yourself from it? What about shifting the focus to great big very acrobatic kicks. This can be seen in everything from the arts themselves, to the much more subtle clues. Notice how tang soo do and taekwondo logos often show kicks, while karate logos often show a fist.

So in summary, sorry for the long post, but I think the Japanese arts influenced Korean arts, but I think it's unfair to say the Korean arts are just plagiarised Japanese arts.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27760
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I've read and learned, Aikido and Hapkido are two separate branches from the art of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. Whereas Ueshiba delved into a very spiritual aspect, the founders of Hapkido (and a name slips my mind, I'd have to check on that) did not go that same route. That's why you see Hapkido be a lot less circular and spherical than Aikido.
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