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amolao
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Joined: 28 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Japanese infkuence? Reply with quote

I recently read an article were they state that all Korean arts are copied from Japanese arts because of Japan's occupation of korea , sorry cant remember who made the article but they mention likes like tang soo do came from Shotokan, hapkido came from aikido and so on...
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truejim
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject: Japanese influence Reply with quote

The short answer is: it's much more complicated than that. Over hundreds of years all the various Asian martial arts have influenced each other. It's just as valid to say that all Korean arts copied from Japanese arts as it is to say that all Japanese arts copied from Chinese arts.

To use just one of the examples you've provided, Tang Soo Do (which is about 60 years old) was influenced by Shotokan (which is less than a hundred years old), which was influenced by Shōrei-ryū, which was influenced by martial arts practiced at the Shoreiji Temple in southern China...and on and on and on for hundreds of years.

See also: http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Taekwondo_History
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hansenator
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget that any country would have its native fighting systems as well. There might be a strong foreign influence but it's not like martial arts were suddenly introduced to a people who have never prepared for a fight before.
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DaveB
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, it really is that simple.

The kicking is Korean the rest of the traditional form is Japanese, the modern manifestation is independent evolution.

The most complicated part is that some things were changed just for the sake of being different to what the Japanese taught, e.g. TKD uses a back weighted fighting stance as opposed to afront weighted jiyu dachi.

Karate does derive from a mix of southeast Asian fighting methods, but there is nothing concrete as to precisely origins. Jujutsu and the related samurai arts are believed to have developed independently.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Korean arts we know today are very heavily influenced by the Japanese arts. During the Japanese occupation, any practice of the MA by the Koreans was suppressed, and erased if it could be done. The founders of the original Kwans after the occupation had experience with some form of Karate, or some Chinese styles along with it. The arguments for the kicking influences of Taek Kyon are iffy at best. Hapkido is more closely tied to Daito-Ryu Aikijitsu than Aikido.

From these influences, the Korean styles have developed into their own styles over the course of the years. But the original influences can't be denied anymore.
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Spartacus Maximus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Japanese influence on Korean martial arts are more than obvious. Those who question it still often do it because of some political or cultural agenda. For centuries Korea, China and Japan have had cultural and commercial ties which brought many exchanges and parallel developments in many fields. The martial arts is just one of these. At the centre of the three was small but very prosperous island kingdom of Ryu kyu, present day Okinawa.

Ryukyu was trading far and wide and sent its ships all over East and Southeast Asia. They may have even reached India. Exchanges with China brought Chinese martial arts and the Okinawan interpretation of these added to native techniques developed what became known as Karate. By the time karate was introduced to Japan, it had again been reinterpreted by the Japanese. This happened a few short years after Korea was annexed to Japan. Before the Japanese took over in the 1900's Korean culture and martial arts had certainly been heavily influenced by China, the superpower of the era, which had a very strong presence.

It is best to understand as a cycle with influence moving from China to Korea and Okinawa and then from Okinawa to Japan and back to Korea again. Similarities in Korean, Japanese and Okinawan terminology are striking. Even more so if one is able to read the original writing. Chinese influence is also apparent in terminology but more obvious when comparing individual techniques.
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Spartacus Maximus
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Copied" is not exactly the term that would apply here. Although it is clear that martial arts have existed for a long time in Korea, what is more difficult to determine is in what form or what systems were practised and taught.

All the Korean martial arts in their present form can be traced back to no earlier than the 1900. This marks a boom in the development and spread of several martial arts in Japan including karate from Okinawa. At the same time, Japan annexed Korea and these martial arts were brought to Korea. After the Japanese occupation ended, Koreans created a synthesis of what they had learned and the existing Korean martial arts into new distinctly Korean systems.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Korean martial arts are not from Japan. There are many different Korean martial arts. They are just not well known compared to Taekwondo. Even for Taekwondo, the only Japanese influence is pretty much the Kata culture (Poomse). If you see the medieval pictures on Korean Muyedobotongji Kwonbub in the link, you see many similar moves as Taekwondo including the reverse punch while turning wrist. On the other hand, if you see Gichin Funakoshi's 1922 textbook on Karate, such doesn't seem to have existed in Karate. This is because Korean Byungin Yoon taught Korean Kwonbub to Karate. Simply put, Korean has that picture in the medieval era. Japanese don't in the 1922.


As for Taekwondo, it originates from a Korean Kwonbub school called YMCA Kwonbub Club. It got mixed with Karate gyms then adopted Karate's Kata system. However, as for the actual moves, most Taekwondo moves can be seen from the medieval Muyedobotongji picture like here.
http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2&sub=22
Even the reverse punch (rotating the wrist while punching) is there as well as the forearm blocking. As for 1922's Karate by Gichin Funakoshi, such doesn't seem to be there. That's because YMCA Kwonbub Club's teacher Byungin Yoon used to teach to Japanese Karate Club.

Also, there is a difference between the actual art & the sparring method. Taekwondo just spars with the kicks. It still learns & can do anything else like punching. It's just a way of sparring.

Anyway, Taekwondo is still mixed with Japanese customary like Kata because YMCA Kwonbub Club was mixed with Karate gyms. Unlike Taekwondo, there are pure traditional Korean martial arts like Kyuksul (available to North Korean only), Nalparam (available to North Korean only), Taekyun (always have been taught in South Korea).

Taekyun is similar to Taekwondo. Taekyun learns the art called Yetbub which strikes with anything including punches. However, Taekyun spars by doing wrestling with kicking. Think Taekwondo except that you can throw other than kicking. Taekyun spars like that. But they still learn everything else like punching in Yetbub. As for Yetbub having always existed in Taekyun, there are 1930's Korean newspapers vouching for it. Taekyun has been numerously recorded as Muyedobotongji Kwonbub & Subak.

If you are asking whether there was a Korean Fight Game that spars by striking with any body part including punches, that's North Korean Kyuksul & Nalparam. Even in South Korea, many forms of such existed like Pyunxaum, Gitxaum, Sibak, Nanjangbaksi, but they are not played today. In terms of South Korea, there is no sparring with punching today. North Korea is the only one today who spars with punching.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gichin Funakoshi's 1922 version Karate can be seen here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8QzMoLt_zw

You can clearly see the older way of Karate punching.

As for Korean, Korean already had the modern "Karate punching" or "reverse punching" when Karate didn't have such.

http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2&sub=22

That site is in Korean language, but you can see the pictures & the numbers. See the picture number 7, the left side. There is the modern Taekwondo punch. Also, you can see the blocking from the picture number 1. These pictures were drawn hundreds of years ago in Korea in a medieval book called Muyedobotongji. Karate adopted techniques from Taekwondo while Taekwondo adopted Kata system (commercial) from Karate. YMCA Kwonbub (Kyungnong 18ki) was mixed with Karate gyms when starting Taekwondo in the modern era.
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wilberbear
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for wearing white clothes, that is just the traditional Korean clothes. Korean had colored clothes, but Korean habitually wore white clothes. Also, there were both the versions with a ribbon in the chest & without the ribbon in the chest (more active clothes). Such can be referenced to Korean museum textbooks even today as well as seen from the 19th century photos on Korean streets. So, Korean had white clothes without a ribbon on the chest. This just became so-called "uniforms". Before the introduction of Western clothing, there was no "uniform" in the sports. People just wore everyday-life clothes casually. This became so-called "uniform" today. It is like how Japanese Jiujitsu wears "uniform" with skirt, but it is not really "uniform" historically but just traditional Japanese clothes. The same goes for the "uniform" in Judo, Karate, Taekwondo.

When you split Taekyun (Kwonbub-Yetbub doing sparring by wrestling with kicking) into wrestling & Kwonbub (the art of hitting with any body part including punching & kicking), you get Judo & Karate. Like Karate, Judo also has a short history in Japan for the record. There are minor differences, of course, between Judo & Taekyun wrestling. Just like there are minor differences between Taekyun Yetbub & Taekwondo. Taekwondo looks more traditional Korean military style while Taekyun Yetbub looks more civilian style. However, Karate hardly looks different from Taekwondo, & it wasn't like that in 1922.
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