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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Thank you for elaborating, CredoTe. I'm sure that over time, with the way styles like Karate and TKD have developed, some of those concepts have gone by the wayside, and its really too bad.

It has always seemed to me, in my TKD training, that the more traditional styles seem to be concerned with technique, how it is performed, and how to do it properly, a la basic techniques. It has always seemed like technique was drilled, then the concepts for application, if the instructor even does that, whereas styles like JKD have seemed to be more concept based first, learning the concepts and bringing the techniques along at the same time.

But, that is just an observation I have made over time and research, and I don't claim it to be a hard and fast rule.


I agree... A lot of MA schools out there are run in the manner of which you speak. We always tried to impart effective concepts and applications to our students, and I think that's what led us in search of what we now know to be Ti; because our teachings weren't jiving with what our original organization's teachings and motivations were (indeed, led to us parting with that organization). Our concepts and applications we taught before fusing with Ti were based upon my CI's and my experiences in street fights (my CI used to be a bouncer and personal body guard for many years). After fusing Ti, it has only made our conceptual and application training that much better.

As for JKD, its teaching and training methods (from what I've read in books, online, etc) look very similar to how Ti is trained. IMHO, the advent of the modern combat MA's (JKD, krav maga, etc) and MMA have had a profound affect on the traditional MA world. Meaning, it's forcing traditional MA's into self-evaluation to figure out how to stay relevant and to improve on how they impart their knowledge. I dare say that I don't think we would have found Ti here in the USA had there not been CMAs/MMA to drive karate to straighten itself out - because we would have went on thinking nothing was wrong. I know I sound like a broken record or beating a dead horse with this Ti stuff ("Ti this, Ti that..." lol ), but I truly believe that Ti is the answer that makes karate relevant in today's world. Now, I can't speak for TKD, but I would think there is something similar in the core of TKD's past that is not present in dojangs today that, if it were, would change it forever for the good.


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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CredoTe wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I think that JKD could really enhance what he does through Karate. JKD really has a lot of concepts to it, as opposed to rote technique. Taking those concepts and applying them along with the Karate training would be pretty beneficial, I think.


Karate does have a lot of concepts to it; but, many of them were not passed on in a widespread manner when all the Osenseis passed away. Many karate schools in the West, particularly in the USA (I cannot speak for South America, Europe, etc, but I hypothesize that they're in the same boat), are missing important pieces of conceptual development.

Some schools do, however. There are some that do teach Irikumi (in-fighting) and Tuite, development of gamaku (power generation) to achieve atemi (destructive power), etc. These are all part of Ti. See, Ti is largely thought of as the predecessor to Tode and eventually karate. But, it's more than that. Ti is a large core of concepts and methods that is missing from most karate schools... it was from mine, too. It doesn't mean I wasn't a good MA before; we trained hard, sparred hard, grappled hard, etc. But, now that we have it, I can't imagine our MA without it.

It doesn't mean Ti is the only core of concepts and methods, either. Many exist, many that work for different people.

tallgeese wrote:
However, on the down side, JKD has quality control issues. Some lineages are quite strong, others are not. Some are in between. Add in the fact that some JKD schools will have a heavy FMA focus (Inasanto varieties), while some will be more grappling/ mma focused (straight blast gyms), while others will pursue more RSBD topics purely (PFS affiliates.) This is all great as it gives you a wide array of JKD to learn. however, this too can be frustrating if your training goals are not meshing with the core of the JKD school you're at. No matter how good they are that their product.


So... what you're saying is that JKD suffers from the same QC/QA issues as pretty much any MA... Lineages split and go separate ways as practitioners get more experience and think they know better than others; "NO! I'm better! I know what Master wanted better than this other guy!"; "Nooo! I know better!"... Yay! Dojo politics!



Lol. Go figure. Similarities everywhere.
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hansenator
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Posts: 99


PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I appreciated about my jkd training in the past is they could give you a specific reason for everything they did. They would explain the theory and how it works, and it made sense. Also a heavy emphasis on partner drills which usually involved some level of having to react to what your partner decides to do. The training methods were set up in such a way as to get more repetition in less time. They would also spend time training qualities like distancing, timing, and movement skills.

There's really no reason a karate class can't have all those qualities as well and there's no guarantee that every jkd class will be of equal quality so I'd have to echo what others have said about the instructor being the most important element.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27663
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hansenator wrote:
One thing I appreciated about my jkd training in the past is they could give you a specific reason for everything they did. They would explain the theory and how it works, and it made sense. Also a heavy emphasis on partner drills which usually involved some level of having to react to what your partner decides to do. The training methods were set up in such a way as to get more repetition in less time. They would also spend time training qualities like distancing, timing, and movement skills.


I think these are all very important aspects of training. Especially the partner training. In our TKD classes, most of the partner training happens towards the end of class, with one-steps or sparring. I really think that most of the class should have partner training going on, but that's my preference.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2340
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CredoTe wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I think that JKD could really enhance what he does through Karate. JKD really has a lot of concepts to it, as opposed to rote technique. Taking those concepts and applying them along with the Karate training would be pretty beneficial, I think.


Karate does have a lot of concepts to it; but, many of them were not passed on in a widespread manner when all the Osenseis passed away. Many karate schools in the West, particularly in the USA (I cannot speak for South America, Europe, etc, but I hypothesize that they're in the same boat), are missing important pieces of conceptual development.

Some schools do, however. There are some that do teach Irikumi (in-fighting) and Tuite, development of gamaku (power generation) to achieve atemi (destructive power), etc. These are all part of Ti. See, Ti is largely thought of as the predecessor to Tode and eventually karate. But, it's more than that. Ti is a large core of concepts and methods that is missing from most karate schools... it was from mine, too. It doesn't mean I wasn't a good MA before; we trained hard, sparred hard, grappled hard, etc. But, now that we have it, I can't imagine our MA without it.

It doesn't mean Ti is the only core of concepts and methods, either. Many exist, many that work for different people.

tallgeese wrote:
However, on the down side, JKD has quality control issues. Some lineages are quite strong, others are not. Some are in between. Add in the fact that some JKD schools will have a heavy FMA focus (Inasanto varieties), while some will be more grappling/ mma focused (straight blast gyms), while others will pursue more RSBD topics purely (PFS affiliates.) This is all great as it gives you a wide array of JKD to learn. however, this too can be frustrating if your training goals are not meshing with the core of the JKD school you're at. No matter how good they are that their product.


So... what you're saying is that JKD suffers from the same QC/QA issues as pretty much any MA... Lineages split and go separate ways as practitioners get more experience and think they know better than others; "NO! I'm better! I know what Master wanted better than this other guy!"; "Nooo! I know better!"... Yay! Dojo politics!



I don't know how to bold certain things, so sorry if this seems like a mess...

You have to keep in mind the majority of the people who brought karate here to the U.S. They were service men who trained for relatively speaking a short time in Japan/Okinawa. They were most likely taught what amounted to the basics or fundamentals and were told to perfect their technique before they taught applications. Learn to walk before you can run. Nothing wrong with that. When they came here, they taught what they knew. Perfect the technique. How long is a your of duty? If it's 4 years, that's long enough to earn a shodan, if they started once the tour started and ended once the tour ended. What do kyu grades get taught? Proper technique. What should black belts learn? Application of the technique they've been taught already.

Just my hypothesis of why we're so technique based over here.

Regarding the OP...

Different instructors are different, even within the same organization. It seems like your child's instructor doesn't know how to differentiate instruction between kyu grades and dan grades. It happens far more often than people realize.
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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
CredoTe wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
I think that JKD could really enhance what he does through Karate. JKD really has a lot of concepts to it, as opposed to rote technique. Taking those concepts and applying them along with the Karate training would be pretty beneficial, I think.


Karate does have a lot of concepts to it; but, many of them were not passed on in a widespread manner when all the Osenseis passed away. Many karate schools in the West, particularly in the USA (I cannot speak for South America, Europe, etc, but I hypothesize that they're in the same boat), are missing important pieces of conceptual development.

Some schools do, however. There are some that do teach Irikumi (in-fighting) and Tuite, development of gamaku (power generation) to achieve atemi (destructive power), etc. These are all part of Ti. See, Ti is largely thought of as the predecessor to Tode and eventually karate. But, it's more than that. Ti is a large core of concepts and methods that is missing from most karate schools... it was from mine, too. It doesn't mean I wasn't a good MA before; we trained hard, sparred hard, grappled hard, etc. But, now that we have it, I can't imagine our MA without it.

It doesn't mean Ti is the only core of concepts and methods, either. Many exist, many that work for different people.

tallgeese wrote:
However, on the down side, JKD has quality control issues. Some lineages are quite strong, others are not. Some are in between. Add in the fact that some JKD schools will have a heavy FMA focus (Inasanto varieties), while some will be more grappling/ mma focused (straight blast gyms), while others will pursue more RSBD topics purely (PFS affiliates.) This is all great as it gives you a wide array of JKD to learn. however, this too can be frustrating if your training goals are not meshing with the core of the JKD school you're at. No matter how good they are that their product.


So... what you're saying is that JKD suffers from the same QC/QA issues as pretty much any MA... Lineages split and go separate ways as practitioners get more experience and think they know better than others; "NO! I'm better! I know what Master wanted better than this other guy!"; "Nooo! I know better!"... Yay! Dojo politics!



I don't know how to bold certain things, so sorry if this seems like a mess...

You have to keep in mind the majority of the people who brought karate here to the U.S. They were service men who trained for relatively speaking a short time in Japan/Okinawa. They were most likely taught what amounted to the basics or fundamentals and were told to perfect their technique before they taught applications. Learn to walk before you can run. Nothing wrong with that. When they came here, they taught what they knew. Perfect the technique. How long is a your of duty? If it's 4 years, that's long enough to earn a shodan, if they started once the tour started and ended once the tour ended. What do kyu grades get taught? Proper technique. What should black belts learn? Application of the technique they've been taught already.

Just my hypothesis of why we're so technique based over here.

Regarding the OP...

Different instructors are different, even within the same organization. It seems like your child's instructor doesn't know how to differentiate instruction between kyu grades and dan grades. It happens far more often than people realize.


I agree. The last part of that post of mine from a while ago was specifically referring to the clash of egos that causes dojo politics to flare up, and ultimately causes the art to suffer.

Regarding what you're referring to; in my experience, there's two basic ways things go when it comes to the instruction of waza:

1) MA instructors (old school military who are still teaching or have passed it on and their pupils teach it the exact same way) teach the basics/fundamentals as they learned it during their duty in Okinawa or Japan and stick to it rigidly (not necessarily a bad thing), or

2) MA instructors (either military or not) that have perfected the basics/fundamentals mentioned in example 1, but continue to learn and grow in the pursuit of truth.

Example 1 can provide for a lifelong MA journey of self-mastery. So, again, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't begrudge anyone taking the way of example 1 in their study of waza. However, I simply prefer example 2.


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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2340
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely, CredoTe. There are more and more people coming from Okinawa and teaching the next piece, so to speak, but they're not close to becoming the norm. In the past I've worked out with some guys who study Okinawan arts such as Uechi and Goju Ryu (I've only studied Japanese karate). What they were doing didn't look like what I've seen people training in Okinawa doing on YouTube. YouTube isn't the holy grail of truth any more than reality is, but there's some merit to their being obvious differences in training methods and applications.

I'd love to train in the old school Okinawan way, but there's no one around me that I've seen doing it. I think a big part of it is our societies' differences. We don't like pain; we tend to look at MA as exercise. I'm not saying everyone, but as a whole. They're not sadists, but they see it as a means to an end (not that there's an theoretical end in MA).
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2131


PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has been much to say about karate and not much about about JKD. What was the original question? Karate and JKD are they compatible? Wasn't Bruce Lee trying to show us how slow and robotic Karate is? Also how karate is not 'in the now' methedolgy just to mention a few differences. JKD contradicts karate every step of the way. Or am I missing the point here?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14289
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
There has been much to say about karate and not much about about JKD. What was the original question? Karate and JKD are they compatible? Wasn't Bruce Lee trying to show us how slow and robotic Karate is? Also how karate is not 'in the now' methedolgy just to mention a few differences. JKD contradicts karate every step of the way. Or am I missing the point here?

So, JKD defeats Karate, hands down? The 'VS' draws that question from me; and in VS, something has to win and something has to lose. Who's the author of said win/loss? The style or the practitioner?



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jaypo
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being a Karateka AND a huge Bruce Lee fan, I'd like to chime in. Lee would say that JKD is not a "style", but more of a philosophy. He didn't think that the best way to practice was by doing Kata (robotic movements). He believed that sparring was better than kata. I believe that training in both is optimum.

But a lot of people don't factor one thing into these discussions- how incredibly physically gifted Bruce was. He was as strong as a heavyweight and faster than most humans on the planet! And his true JKD was basically created around HIS physical abilities. the JKD philosophy was basically to take what worked from a certain style, strip away what doesn't, and create a "style with no style". While I believe JKD has some advantages over Karate, I believe Karate has some over JKD. A lot of things that regular people don't see is actually in Karate. A huge amount of the BJJ and Judo that people practice is in Karate (that's where it came from!) Kyusho. Grappling. Etc. All of it can be found in Karate if one knows where to look.

While I hold a certain rank in Karate, I also practice Kyusho and Hapkido. And I find ways to mesh those things into my regular Karate techniques. So, in essence, I am following Bruce's philosophy. I am taking from other arts and incorporating what I think works into what I already practice. When I break techniques down, I strip away what I think doesn't work and use what DOES work. I think that's what Bruce envisioned. Not a room full of people doing the exact same thing. A group of people truly expressing themselves by doing more or less what I described- creating their own "style" while being true to themselves.
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