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AdamKralic
Blue Belt
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Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Posts: 313
Location: Chicagoland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Jeet Kune Do vs Karate. Reply with quote

I am making a website for a friend that is a personal trainer who just so happens to have like 6 or 7 years of jeet kune do under his belt. GREAT guy.

Anyways he's paying me partially in cash...partially in working with my son on some athletic workouts n whatnot. He came by last night for an hour...great stuff he was teaching. Really solid plyometric depth jump type exercises...then did a kind of rotating punch combo for attacking as people circle...I loved it all. Some bag work...

Zach was having a good time doing it too. Zach gets bored in his karate class now. They teach to the lowest common denominator it seems. I cannot believe how basic the drills are for the black belt sparring class. Same basic drills they had as red belts...and for that matter blue belts.

My friend has done a good amount of MMA fights...the stuff where people get injured n whatnot...not looking for that for my son...but still can't help but be interested in seeing what the next few lessons bring.

Your thoughts on JKD vs karate?
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mal103
Purple Belt
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Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559


PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only done Karate so can't compare the two, but I have been doing Karate properly so I would suggest you find a better school or stick with it.
Most examples of other MA that I have witnessed can also be found in Karate IF done properly and fully with the full range, especially beyond black belt.
Chasing two rabbits doesn't work either but then the grass is always greener...
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27760
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that JKD could really enhance what he does through Karate. JKD really has a lot of concepts to it, as opposed to rote technique. Taking those concepts and applying them along with the Karate training would be pretty beneficial, I think.
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been around both karate based arts as well as JKD for awhile now, in fact, I was luckily enough to get my first instructor license in JKD last year. So I have gotten the chance to compare and contrast a bit.

First up, there are strong points to both. A lot of this is going to come down to personal preference in goals of the student.

The two have drastically different training methods. If you enjoy technique based learning then karate will fit better for you. If you lean towards training methodology and drilling, then JKD will appeal much more.

JKD has a wider area of concern, from the long stick thru blades to unarmed to grappling and every variant in between. This means that you'll never get a dull day. About the time you're sick of kickboxing range, you'll have a weapon in your hand or be grappling at some range.

That said, there's a lot more to cover in JKD and it can seem like it takes longer to get it all integrated. For instance, I'm a JKD guy that does not have a strong (read hardly any) background in stick work. This can be frustrating.

However, on the down side, JKD has quality control issues. Some lineages are quite strong, others are not. Some are in between. Add in the fact that some JKD schools will have a heavy FMA focus (Inasanto varieties), while some will be more grappling/ mma focused (straight blast gyms), while others will pursue more RSBD topics purely (PFS affiliates.) This is all great as it gives you a wide array of JKD to learn. however, this too can be frustrating if your training goals are not meshing with the core of the JKD school you're at. No matter how good they are that their product.

This can be off putting for people who like tradition and are into that process (which is fine) but can be a phenomenal learning environment for the people looking for the most efficient route between right now and a potential fight.

Yes, there are similar movements in karate to JKD in some cases, but the training methods used to learn, and more importantly deploy, those tools will be entirely different.

Lastly, you'll begin to look at just about everything you run across and analyze if it will help you in a fight. If it will, you'll train it and integrate it. There are NO stylistic boundaries, only efficient combat.

I really like the JKD mindset. That's not to say that it's superior. Just that it fits the way I learn and my goals better. There are several individuals who will be exactly the opposite. And that's cool. But there are distinct methodology, mindset, and tactical differences.
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andym
Green Belt
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Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 487

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They teach to the lowest common denominator it seems.

says AdamKralic

And there's the problem in a nutshell. No progression and student development. No wonder your son gets bored. But is that Karate's fault or the instructors ? Really the issue is instructor V instructor, rather than art V art.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imho...

Both effective MA; both could compliment each other.

I think that the VERSUS between both MA is that one teaches kata and the other doesn't teach kata.

The one that teaches kata believes in its teaching methodology as kata teaches a plethora of body mechanics. Such as, transitions, posture, proper breathing, focus, hip movements, footwork, execution of technique, stances, and applications, to name just a few.

The one that doesn't teach kata believes that kata training is useless, akin to "swimming on dry land". It's believed that kata lacks the live training that one gets from sparring; to engage with another, yet, a live person and not an imaginary one.

It's the choice of the practitioner, and not the choice of the style. Yes, the style dictates its methodologies and ideologies, but, it's the practitioner who must choice what is best suited for them in the long run.

Either, imho, of these MA would benefit the practitioner, and even to say, mixing the two would be beneficial to their MA betterment.

The VERSUS has to be forgotten because every MA shares basic core methodologies and ideologies; therefore, we're of the same brotherhood/sisterhood. Changes are noticed and they can't be ignored with either MA, but peel away the onion one layer at a time, one can see that they've more in common than they aren't.

Mix them; you'll have a solid MA to be proud of. But that's the choice of the practitioner and not of the masses.

Imho!!



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mal103
Purple Belt
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Joined: 21 May 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
The one that teaches kata believes in its teaching methodology as kata teaches a plethora of body mechanics. Such as, transitions, posture, proper breathing, focus, hip movements, footwork, execution of technique, stances, and applications, to name just a few.

The one that doesn't teach kata believes that kata training is useless, akin to "swimming on dry land". It's believed that kata lacks the live training that one gets from sparring; to engage with another, yet, a live person and not an imaginary one.


Just running over this point and my earlier comments - a good Karate school/dojo will teach the Kata, then teach applications, also how they can vary and then drill them with a partner - ultimately drill them with a "not so compliant" partner so they can see if it works and if it works for them.
The ideal for me is to pick one or some of these drills automatically if they were ever needed.

Karate will get you to the same place as any other MA - you just have to stick with it - or get a good teacher.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mal103 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
The one that teaches kata believes in its teaching methodology as kata teaches a plethora of body mechanics. Such as, transitions, posture, proper breathing, focus, hip movements, footwork, execution of technique, stances, and applications, to name just a few.

The one that doesn't teach kata believes that kata training is useless, akin to "swimming on dry land". It's believed that kata lacks the live training that one gets from sparring; to engage with another, yet, a live person and not an imaginary one.


Just running over this point and my earlier comments - a good Karate school/dojo will teach the Kata, then teach applications, also how they can vary and then drill them with a partner - ultimately drill them with a "not so compliant" partner so they can see if it works and if it works for them.
The ideal for me is to pick one or some of these drills automatically if they were ever needed.

Karate will get you to the same place as any other MA - you just have to stick with it - or get a good teacher.

Solid post!!



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CredoTe
Red Belt
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Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I think that JKD could really enhance what he does through Karate. JKD really has a lot of concepts to it, as opposed to rote technique. Taking those concepts and applying them along with the Karate training would be pretty beneficial, I think.


Karate does have a lot of concepts to it; but, many of them were not passed on in a widespread manner when all the Osenseis passed away. Many karate schools in the West, particularly in the USA (I cannot speak for South America, Europe, etc, but I hypothesize that they're in the same boat), are missing important pieces of conceptual development.

Some schools do, however. There are some that do teach Irikumi (in-fighting) and Tuite, development of gamaku (power generation) to achieve atemi (destructive power), etc. These are all part of Ti. See, Ti is largely thought of as the predecessor to Tode and eventually karate. But, it's more than that. Ti is a large core of concepts and methods that is missing from most karate schools... it was from mine, too. It doesn't mean I wasn't a good MA before; we trained hard, sparred hard, grappled hard, etc. But, now that we have it, I can't imagine our MA without it.

It doesn't mean Ti is the only core of concepts and methods, either. Many exist, many that work for different people.

tallgeese wrote:
However, on the down side, JKD has quality control issues. Some lineages are quite strong, others are not. Some are in between. Add in the fact that some JKD schools will have a heavy FMA focus (Inasanto varieties), while some will be more grappling/ mma focused (straight blast gyms), while others will pursue more RSBD topics purely (PFS affiliates.) This is all great as it gives you a wide array of JKD to learn. however, this too can be frustrating if your training goals are not meshing with the core of the JKD school you're at. No matter how good they are that their product.


So... what you're saying is that JKD suffers from the same QC/QA issues as pretty much any MA... Lineages split and go separate ways as practitioners get more experience and think they know better than others; "NO! I'm better! I know what Master wanted better than this other guy!"; "Nooo! I know better!"... Yay! Dojo politics!


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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for elaborating, CredoTe. I'm sure that over time, with the way styles like Karate and TKD have developed, some of those concepts have gone by the wayside, and its really too bad.

It has always seemed to me, in my TKD training, that the more traditional styles seem to be concerned with technique, how it is performed, and how to do it properly, a la basic techniques. It has always seemed like technique was drilled, then the concepts for application, if the instructor even does that, whereas styles like JKD have seemed to be more concept based first, learning the concepts and bringing the techniques along at the same time.

But, that is just an observation I have made over time and research, and I don't claim it to be a hard and fast rule.
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