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DaveB
Orange Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Location: London
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 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| DaveB wrote: |
The basic blocks are best used as blocks against fully committed attacks.
When the attack has full weight and intent behind it (ie not the first punch in a flurry but the killing blow) the basic blocks disrupt momentum and structure creating physical and temporal space for the counter attack but more importantly enabling control of the enemy.
This can be done both with interruption or absorption of the attack, the latter usually combining some degree of pivoting or footwork.
Age/jodan uke in particular is a great opportunity to control the opponents elbow, or can offer great openings by dropping your level while blocking.
As to the idea that if you can block you can move, I think if you consider that statement you'll realise it's a bit backwards. Hands move faster than the body. Also depending on terrain moving my be a bad idea, especially head movement that breaks your balance and leaves you vulnerable to kicks and tackles. Blocks are either an active defence strategy or a last resort for something you didn't see coming. Everything else is moving out of the way.
The trouble is that people learn to block without learning why or when they should. If your block can't disrupt the opponent nor give you control of his body then it should be body movement and at most a palm parry. You should never be in the position of blocking multiple strikes without response. |
We'll have to agree to disagree. I personally don't use nor teach blocking in the modern sense of the word. Blocking in the modern Japanese definition is non-effective in a real fight. So we have different points of view and definitely different beliefs on the subject but it's all good. |
I find that belief fascinating.
Can you explain what about blocking is ineffective? |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DaveB wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| DaveB wrote: |
The basic blocks are best used as blocks against fully committed attacks.
When the attack has full weight and intent behind it (ie not the first punch in a flurry but the killing blow) the basic blocks disrupt momentum and structure creating physical and temporal space for the counter attack but more importantly enabling control of the enemy.
This can be done both with interruption or absorption of the attack, the latter usually combining some degree of pivoting or footwork.
Age/jodan uke in particular is a great opportunity to control the opponents elbow, or can offer great openings by dropping your level while blocking.
As to the idea that if you can block you can move, I think if you consider that statement you'll realise it's a bit backwards. Hands move faster than the body. Also depending on terrain moving my be a bad idea, especially head movement that breaks your balance and leaves you vulnerable to kicks and tackles. Blocks are either an active defence strategy or a last resort for something you didn't see coming. Everything else is moving out of the way.
The trouble is that people learn to block without learning why or when they should. If your block can't disrupt the opponent nor give you control of his body then it should be body movement and at most a palm parry. You should never be in the position of blocking multiple strikes without response. |
We'll have to agree to disagree. I personally don't use nor teach blocking in the modern sense of the word. Blocking in the modern Japanese definition is non-effective in a real fight. So we have different points of view and definitely different beliefs on the subject but it's all good. |
I find that belief fascinating.
Can you explain what about blocking is ineffective? |
Unlike training in a Dojo, when in a real confrontation, "blocks" as most know them have inherent limitations and pit falls. You essentially change your momentum and power for a period of time which gives your opponent the advantage. Example: attacker is driving forward, momentum and power are focused forward which means that they can and will easily follow up with a second or third or (fill in the blank) strikes / defender upper blocks (Jodan Uke), Momentum is stalled and power and focus is directed upward. Leaves body wide open for attacker to choose target. The other inherent problem with blocking is unlike training the opponent does not leave their arm out in space while allowing you to execute your counter. Real fights are fast (if the participants are serious) and that one full body committed strike does not happen often if at all. Instead it is a barrage of strikes (maybe light, maybe with 70% power or maybe all with 100% full power).
Another example; most teach blocks as defense against weapons such as knives and clubs. You essentially gift a target to a knife wielding attacker in that your arm is in a perfect position for them to reverse direction and slash or hook your arm. The same is true when unarmed. It gives me the opportunity to seize the defenders arm and control their direction of momentum and balance thus giving me the advantage.
I am not saying I do not teach Uki (Uke) or to receive techniques. I do not teach blocking.
If you do some research you'll find that, what the Japanese coined as Uke and the western world coined as blocks, were never employed by the original founders but was a misinterpretation. We utilize brushes, traps, sweeps and strikes in place of what is called blocks. Blocks at best are ineffective unless your fighting someone less skilled than yourself. Against a better fighter blocks are useless.
And IMHO, if you have time to execute a lower block (just for one example), you have time to shift your body. Unlike your explanation above of terrain, etc. In old school Suidi (Shuri-te) you are constantly moving outside of your opponents direct force. Why then would I stand in place, as is taught in 90% of the schools today, and deliver a lower block when I can shift, allow them to pass and counter. Yes in that moment I might be brushing and seizing the attackers weapon to control them as I move to an advantageous position but to "block" serves no purpose IMHO except to give the opponent the advantage.
I have used the "block" when I was young because that is what I was taught. In real fights I found out very quickly it does not work.
To each their own. If you say they work for you then use them. Me personally... I don't use nor teach them. My Shinshii did not teach them and my students don't teach them.
Question; have you ever noticed that you never see them utilized in Kumite, MMA, or any other form of fighting? Ever seen a Jodan Uke utilized in a street fight?
2nd Question; if blocks were a realistic methodology for combat/battle (which is where the art came from) then why do we not teach blocks in Tichiki (Bunkai)? The founders did not pass down step forward and upper block but instead passed down step forward while striking upward into the trachea and into the chin for one example. Strike, throw, brush, deflection, redirection, trap, seize, etc - not a block.
The only applications I have ever seen utilizing an actual block are literal applications. Not the true representation of the founders applications or their teachers applications that were taught to them.
To each their own. I am not saying that blocks are bad or that you shouldn't be teaching/using them. For you they may make sense. For me they do not. And as such, I do not teach/use them.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I'm totally in agreement with you, as a general rule. Your original question, though, was whether the literal "block" application of jodan-uke could be used in a right, and it can. Admittedly, I'm not talking about a picture perfect jodan-uke in complete isolation, but I have absolutely seen and used a single-arm jodan-uke in conjunction with dropping levels beneath an attack and throwing a simultaneous punch. It's sporty, but it works in the longer ranges of fighting. Once you're in close, of course, it's back to the old-school material.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I don't even have the slightest clue as to what a "block" looks like or feels like or whatever else; alien to me!! So Jodan Uke, has the appearance but it doesn't have the feel of it being a "block", and in that, if I use it, it'll not be as what the layperson supposes it to be.
The word "block", imho, has manipulated the general masses into what it isn't, and those who live by that conceptual vision haven't explored it beyond the surface of said movement.
I can no longer "block" than I can leap over a tall building; both, for me, are an illusion, at best.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513
Styles: Tang soo do
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Yeah, I don't even have the slightest clue as to what a "block" looks like or feels like or whatever else; alien to me!! So Jodan Uke, has the appearance but it doesn't have the feel of it being a "block", and in that, if I use it, it'll not be as what the layperson supposes it to be.
The word "block", imho, has manipulated the general masses into what it isn't, and those who live by that conceptual vision haven't explored it beyond the surface of said movement.
I can no longer "block" than I can leap over a tall building; both, for me, are an illusion, at best.
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I like this.
Many 'blocks' are far too impractical to use as a block. Jodan uke especially so. It's ridiculous as a block. But it has value as a close range strike and various other bits.
As a point of interest (or at least it interested me), the term 'block' turns out to be a western mistranslation. As is so often the case, there's no direct translation between the Japanese 'uke' and English. I'm not that up on Japanese but I believe it means something like, to receive and control, or to receive and deflect/redirect', so it became widely translated simply as 'block'. But if we look at it in the wider possible interpretation, suddenly the 'blocks' take on new meaning. Receiving a technique doesn't have to mean getting walloped. It means receiving the incoming in a way over which you have some control. |
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DaveB
Orange Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| DaveB wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| DaveB wrote: |
The basic blocks are best used as blocks against fully committed attacks.
When the attack has full weight and intent behind it (ie not the first punch in a flurry but the killing blow) the basic blocks disrupt momentum and structure creating physical and temporal space for the counter attack but more importantly enabling control of the enemy.
This can be done both with interruption or absorption of the attack, the latter usually combining some degree of pivoting or footwork.
Age/jodan uke in particular is a great opportunity to control the opponents elbow, or can offer great openings by dropping your level while blocking.
As to the idea that if you can block you can move, I think if you consider that statement you'll realise it's a bit backwards. Hands move faster than the body. Also depending on terrain moving my be a bad idea, especially head movement that breaks your balance and leaves you vulnerable to kicks and tackles. Blocks are either an active defence strategy or a last resort for something you didn't see coming. Everything else is moving out of the way.
The trouble is that people learn to block without learning why or when they should. If your block can't disrupt the opponent nor give you control of his body then it should be body movement and at most a palm parry. You should never be in the position of blocking multiple strikes without response. |
We'll have to agree to disagree. I personally don't use nor teach blocking in the modern sense of the word. Blocking in the modern Japanese definition is non-effective in a real fight. So we have different points of view and definitely different beliefs on the subject but it's all good. |
I find that belief fascinating.
Can you explain what about blocking is ineffective? |
Unlike training in a Dojo, when in a real confrontation, "blocks" as most know them have inherent limitations and pit falls. You essentially change your momentum and power for a period of time which gives your opponent the advantage. Example: attacker is driving forward, momentum and power are focused forward which means that they can and will easily follow up with a second or third or (fill in the blank) strikes / defender upper blocks (Jodan Uke), Momentum is stalled and power and focus is directed upward. Leaves body wide open for attacker to choose target. The other inherent problem with blocking is unlike training the opponent does not leave their arm out in space while allowing you to execute your counter. Real fights are fast (if the participants are serious) and that one full body committed strike does not happen often if at all. Instead it is a barrage of strikes (maybe light, maybe with 70% power or maybe all with 100% full power).
Another example; most teach blocks as defense against weapons such as knives and clubs. You essentially gift a target to a knife wielding attacker in that your arm is in a perfect position for them to reverse direction and slash or hook your arm. The same is true when unarmed. It gives me the opportunity to seize the defenders arm and control their direction of momentum and balance thus giving me the advantage.
I am not saying I do not teach Uki (Uke) or to receive techniques. I do not teach blocking.
If you do some research you'll find that, what the Japanese coined as Uke and the western world coined as blocks, were never employed by the original founders but was a misinterpretation. We utilize brushes, traps, sweeps and strikes in place of what is called blocks. Blocks at best are ineffective unless your fighting someone less skilled than yourself. Against a better fighter blocks are useless.
And IMHO, if you have time to execute a lower block (just for one example), you have time to shift your body. Unlike your explanation above of terrain, etc. In old school Suidi (Shuri-te) you are constantly moving outside of your opponents direct force. Why then would I stand in place, as is taught in 90% of the schools today, and deliver a lower block when I can shift, allow them to pass and counter. Yes in that moment I might be brushing and seizing the attackers weapon to control them as I move to an advantageous position but to "block" serves no purpose IMHO except to give the opponent the advantage.
I have used the "block" when I was young because that is what I was taught. In real fights I found out very quickly it does not work.
To each their own. If you say they work for you then use them. Me personally... I don't use nor teach them. My Shinshii did not teach them and my students don't teach them.
Question; have you ever noticed that you never see them utilized in Kumite, MMA, or any other form of fighting? Ever seen a Jodan Uke utilized in a street fight?
2nd Question; if blocks were a realistic methodology for combat/battle (which is where the art came from) then why do we not teach blocks in Tichiki (Bunkai)? The founders did not pass down step forward and upper block but instead passed down step forward while striking upward into the trachea and into the chin for one example. Strike, throw, brush, deflection, redirection, trap, seize, etc - not a block.
The only applications I have ever seen utilizing an actual block are literal applications. Not the true representation of the founders applications or their teachers applications that were taught to them.
To each their own. I am not saying that blocks are bad or that you shouldn't be teaching/using them. For you they may make sense. For me they do not. And as such, I do not teach/use them. |
I used to be where you are on blocking, but eventually I came full circle to start reconsidering their use.
I find that at least in part the issue is a semantic one. People get very caught up with the English language connotations of the word "block", such that they end up talking about the tiniest fraction of the ways you can use an uke technique to avoid damage when saying that blocks don't work.
On the other hand I include things like brushing the blow past as you sidestep as a use of blocking, since blocking is just the English colloquial name for the various uke techniques.
You ask why we don't see blocking in combat sports. Because no one trains them.
MMA is only now discovering the oblique kick; Lyoto Machida showed them how effective foot sweeps could be but they are still not common... The list of techniques that were useless but now have been shown to work in the cage is huge and one day blocking will be added to it. But if you look back.to the days before gloves, old bare knuckle boxers did indeed use blocks and in particular the jodan uke was exactly the same in boxing as it is in karate.
Also in modern boxing the gloves impede vision once you start waving your hands around to block. I know because I used to do it in boxing/kick boxing training. The blocking was extremely effective until I messed up and allowed follow up strikes. Then I found I couldn't see so had to learn boxing blocks ie zonal covering.
A side note: the covering up that combat sports people do is mostly garbage. Especially in ufc with the smaller gloves, it is totally ineffective. But when most karateka have lost the knowledge of how to block why would boxers etc know?
Also this idea that old school karate didn't use blocks is something that I hear a lot but see no evidence for. I've been lucky enough to train briefly with some very old school karateka and while they moved differently and I think called it something different, they still used their arms to stop incoming blows from landing, ie they blocked.
At best the idea is semantics at worst it's revisionism.
Finally I would ask you to look over my description of the use of blocking again. The reason. Is that much of what you explain for why you shouldn't block we are on the same page on. I accounted for momentum and multiple strikes before you mentioned them as reasons not to block.
Ultimately I feel that if people can draw a distinction between how things work in the dojo and how they work in the street it is an indication that the training they have been exposed to is lacking aliveness and probably too formal.
The laws of physics are the same in a dojo, thus the only limitations to effective training are those we impose for safety and those we impose because it's not what we know. So if we know people plow in with more than one punch that is what we need to train against and if we allow our skill level and understanding to be the weak link when things go wrong it's much easier to find what we need to make things work rather than throwing them out. |
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barefoot-kohai
White Belt
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 23
Location: Barcelona (ESP)
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Never understood the word uke as block. We translate it as 'defense' (when is a technique) or 'receiver or defendant' (when is a person)
I think the meaning is more clear.
_________________
"Words without thoughts never to heaven go" |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| barefoot-kohai wrote: |
Never understood the word uke as block. We translate it as 'defense' (when is a technique) or 'receiver or defendant' (when is a person)
I think the meaning is more clear. |
I hear you. In Shindokan we never block, we receive; requires quite a lot of maturity across the borad.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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advfhorn
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 61
Location: NJ - USA
Styles: Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| every block can be a strike as well. yes I would use it if it gave me an opening or I could redirect into another move. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Dave B.
As to not post our earlier (very long) posts and take up a great deal of space I will answer you in a new post.
I understand what you are saying and understand the thinking behind what you are saying. When I was younger I studied an art emphasized blocks. The thought behind a block was to damage or break the opponents weapon. We practiced conditioning (arm to arm blocks/strikes) and the concept was every block is a strike and every strike is a block. In fact the phase "Karate Ni Sente Nashi" was enforced. Thus the emphasis on blocking was tantamount in training.
This is what I refer to when talking about modern blocking (in some respects). Don't get me wrong I love all of the arts I have trained in and find them to be effective in many ways. However I do not agree with the premise of blocking.
To me it robs momentum thus slowing your reaction time down and giving your opponent an advantage. Conditioning the arms to damage/break the opponents is great unless of course your opponent is more conditioned than you 9an example would be a Thai fight I saw years ago were a guy broke his leg kicking his opponents leg). To me it's not a great idea to block a full on strike when I can just as easily move, brush, redirect then seize and control or throw and maintain the advantage versus giving it to my opponent.
As far as evidence goes... you're right in some respects as many of what we call old teachers are third or more generation away from the founders and teach the modern sense of blocking and thus I would draw the same opinion. However as it was passed down to me, we do not block in the modern sense. We do not block in any sense. In researching my art and the old arts that influenced my art I have seen examples of both blocks and what we understand as Uke(Uki). Proof... well like most things in Okinawan arts documentation is scarce at best. I can only offer you my opinion and that of my teachers and their teachers. Beyond that it is very hard to point to anything so concrete. So I will say that besides my journey and the understanding of my arts I have no documentation to prove or disprove that I can point to where you can see that proof for yourself.
I have nothing against the block in modern terms in training. I quite enjoyed my time studying arts that utilize this, for conditioning purposes. I just do not feel that it is effective in actual combat. However if it works for you, use it. For me it has never worked and those that I have seen trying to implement it in real combat paid for the attempt.
And just to clarify we do train and teach as we will fight. Realism is tantamount to being prepared.
I myself learned hard lessons in terms of blocking which is why I prefer our arts methodology. For me it is all about maintaining the advantage and for reasons that I have explained along with others. I find no real value in blocking. Call it a personal preference.
I'm am definitely not saying you are wrong for your beliefs. I am merely saying that IMHO it's not for me or the way I/we teach the art.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
