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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2284
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:54 am    Post subject: Joys of Karate Terminology Reply with quote

Recently over the last few months, I have been shooting footage of every Technique that was required for my club.

It got me thinking about two different things:

1. How fascinating it is how two different clubs often of the same style can have two different names for that one technique.

For instance an Upper Block (Or "Rising" Block for some); is called Jodan Uke or Age Uke.

another example is my old club used the term "Yoko Geri" as the generic term for a Roundhouse Kick to the Ribs. Whereas other clubs would use Chudan Mawashi Geri. And their "Yoko Geri" may be version of a Side Kick.

2. Why and how this version of Chinese Whispers occurred with such similar names.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15565
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great topic!!

Whether these terms refer to two distinct techniques, or the same technique, depends entirely upon how each is used within any given MA school.

Terms are distinct in that "Age" means an implied upward direction and/or motion. In the many MA, "Jodan" refers specifically to a target area of the body, including the shoulders and above. So, the term Age-Uke refers to blocks with an upward motion, there are many techniques called Age-Uke that can also be called Jodan-Uke, but some techniques are aimed at the center level, and are referred to as Chudan-Uke.

With Yoko-Geri, it seems that it can't be confused with Mawashi Geri for obvious reasons, with one being directed in a straight line, and the other being directed in a circular line towards said target.

Yet, I can see many techniques falling under a main category instead of some different sub-category. Albeit, the confusion can still be quite confusing. Perhaps the saying applies to this topic..."When in Rome, do as the Romans do"; just train hard and train well.

So, yes, there's a lot of fun with MA technique names.

What's the preference of any given CI in any given MA regarding this topic?? As wide as the skies and as deep as any oceans. Influences can't be ignored either as a possibility for these occurrences.

Within Shindokan, we've had in the past, several CIs within the SKKA network, following the labeling of the techniques of Shotokan for the simplicity for their own students. This was allowed because the SKKA never ever meddled into network dojos operational affairs whatsoever.



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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 82

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen folks use jodan uke and age uke interchangeably, but they really shouldn't if you want to be a bit technical about it.

Jodan uke (上段受) translates to upper level reception or upper level receiving. It is really more of a generic term as just about any receiving technique (incorrectly referred to as a "block") can be done at an "upper level".

Age uke (上げ受け), on the other hand, translates as raise and receive. So, in this particular case, there is a definite component of rising in conjunction with the receiving. So, it gives us an angle of motion to work with where jodan uke does not.

If I might add a personal observation that I have had over the decades...most martial arts are taught and continue to teach the starting point of the movement (in this case uke kata, 受方 or receiving methods...or uke ho if you prefer) and only really look at the start of the technique and the end of the technique with, maybe, a little bit of attention paid to the path the technique takes. But, everything between that start and end is generally ignored or not examined much. This is a shame because very often this is where the "real technique" is being done...or the desired outcome is actually achieved. Just a thought as you do your "blocks"...
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1835
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tatsujin wrote:
Age uke (上げ受け), on the other hand, translates as raise and receive. So, in this particular case, there is a definite component of rising in conjunction with the receiving. So, it gives us an angle of motion to work with where jodan uke does not.


To this point, my current dojo makes a distinction between jodan uke and age uke. Jodan uke is a technique that meets the strike with force. Age uke is a technique that meets the strike with redirection.
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GS718Trek
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Joined: 08 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My traditional dojos use English when announcing certain techniques and some in Japanese with different names. Gedan Barai would just be called as "down block" etc..

Other dojos Ive been to will use strictly Japanese terminology, so regardless, I still try to study the Japanese pronunciations for common techniques between styles
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tatsujin
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
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Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
My traditional dojos use English when announcing certain techniques and some in Japanese with different names. Gedan Barai would just be called as "down block" etc..

Other dojos Ive been to will use strictly Japanese terminology, so regardless, I still try to study the Japanese pronunciations for common techniques between styles


We always started out with English and Japanese with beginners. By the time they are testing for shodan (and above) it is all basically in Japanese.

I have found that over time, the proper understanding of the Japanese terms helps in understanding the more original intent of the techniques when compared to how they are taught in more modern times and in more competitive training environments.
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tastujin wrote:
We always started out with English and Japanese with beginners. By the time they are testing for shodan (and above) it is all basically in Japanese.


In my original dojo, we exclusively did English. Our CI didn't want to use any Japanese terminology so that he could "dispel the mysticism around karate," whatever that meant. As such, now that I'm going through the ranks again, I find myself struggling to remember the names of different techniques. I literally have flash cards on my desk to help me memorize the information. Now, when I assist with teaching the beginners in the dojo, I take care to do like you suggest here. I say the English name, and then the Japanese name. So, for example, if we're doing stuff in Horse, I will say "go to horse stance, kiba-dachi," with the Japanese name acting as the command.
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Miick 11
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tatsujin wrote:
I have seen folks use jodan uke and age uke interchangeably, but they really shouldn't if you want to be a bit technical about it.

Jodan uke (上段受) translates to upper level reception or upper level receiving. It is really more of a generic term as just about any receiving technique (incorrectly referred to as a "block") can be done at an "upper level".

Age uke (上げ受け), on the other hand, translates as raise and receive. So, in this particular case, there is a definite component of rising in conjunction with the receiving. So, it gives us an angle of motion to work with where jodan uke does not.

If I might add a personal observation that I have had over the decades...most martial arts are taught and continue to teach the starting point of the movement (in this case uke kata, 受方 or receiving methods...or uke ho if you prefer) and only really look at the start of the technique and the end of the technique with, maybe, a little bit of attention paid to the path the technique takes. But, everything between that start and end is generally ignored or not examined much. This is a shame because very often this is where the "real technique" is being done...or the desired outcome is actually achieved. Just a thought as you do your "blocks"...


Yes , 'blocks' in inverted commas .

As 'to receive' and 'to block' are virtually opposites . Most of what is termed a 'block' in my style is a way of receiving and controlling a technique . Actions that look like a block ( the 'standard blocks) are actually strikes .

Of course, a block should be in one's repertoire as well ; sometimes one does not have a choice but to block , or in a more controlled situation, one can 'jam' . with a blocking action.
'
One good example is our ' shuto ' , when used as a 'block' the hand and wrist does a rolling action .... one of the classical Okinawan dance hand gestures .... that ends in seizing the sleeve or wrist of the other's punch . Then it can rotate and 'lift up' ( another classic dance hand gesture ) in the opposite direction (all using the opponents directional force , of course ) into a standing wrist lock . - continue the 'dance' and its a takedown .

from 5:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dta_GrXUS4U
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Miick 11
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
tatsujin wrote:
Age uke (上げ受け), on the other hand, translates as raise and receive. So, in this particular case, there is a definite component of rising in conjunction with the receiving. So, it gives us an angle of motion to work with where jodan uke does not.


To this point, my current dojo makes a distinction between jodan uke and age uke. Jodan uke is a technique that meets the strike with force. Age uke is a technique that meets the strike with redirection.


Yet the meaning of 'uke' (which is in both terms ) is closer to the second concept .
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I've ever known was deflection, and not the block. Our deflection is akin to the football wide receiver who receives the ball that was thrown directly at the wide receiver. Thusly, we receive, and not block, any said attack.

The mechanics of receiving allows me to manipulate direction in order to initiate my Tuite against by opponent. If I block, there's a greater chance that the connection between my attacker and myself is severed due to the trauma created by the force of said block. Speaking about football, there's a cardinal rule which says..."Don't drop the football". Same thing here. if I drop the connection, i.e., football, then the Tuite is ended...no first down/touchdown.

So, we once again see the joy of MA technique labels.



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