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TangSooGuy
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 324
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Styles: Tang Soo Do

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had seminars on this one by law enforcement agents...this one could go either way.

In my state (pennsylvania) you are allowed to respond with lethal force if you believe your life OR the life of someone else is in danger.

So the question here is: was the clerk's life in danger?

As you describe it...it seems that the clerk's life wasn't really ever in any danger, but the use of a gun almost automatically indicates intent to use it.

It would be a tough on eto prove either way.

If you can show the clerk's life was in danger, then use of deadly force was justified.


Also, you have some murkiness in that you could argue that "deadly force" wasn't really used, but instead that his death was actually aresult of the trauma from the fall...in which case you get very cloudy very fast...

so this particular scenario could very easily go either way depending on the people involved if it went to trial.
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Sam
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 1748

Styles: ITF TKD, Wu Shu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah thats a good point actually tangsooguy....bout the fall
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Menjo
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 1786
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justified because I think the fact that he was in the store with the gun drawn, endangers the black belts life as well...I know thats in effect in some places around but depends where the store is i guess.
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Belasko
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 180
Location: Idaho
Styles: Tae Kwon do, some Judo

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shotochem wrote:
I don't believe a jury would ever convict him. If it actually would go to trial think of all the publicity it would get.......

Movie deals, photo ops, time to write that book ect....

No one in their right mind would hold the person accountable. Morally,
if you feel bad send flowers. There is an inherent danger of being killed while performing an armed robbery. Robber gets killed, sucks for him.


I would like to agree with Shotochem about no one in their right mind convicting this person. However, after working in the ICU and dealing with a large variety of injuries brought about by an incredible number of situations, I truly believe that common sense is not all that common. So how many people are actually in their "right mind?"
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Sam
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 1748

Styles: ITF TKD, Wu Shu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what is my "right mind" or anyones.... hehe
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Kaminari
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 323

Styles: Seito Shito-Ryu Karate

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was justified, as it was in the protection of the lives of others. The fact that he studies martial arts is irrelevant, as anyone can clock someone in the head hard enough to knock someone unconscious, but, in reality, even the death is not directly his fault, as he did not nor did he mean to kill the robber, merely to incapacitate him.

It's justified in my opinion, but not often seen that way by the judicial system. Often the ruling will be against the martial artist as he is seen to be competent in terms of fighting, and "should have known that the robber might die from this or that", etc. etc. So, it all depends on your point of view.
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Martial_Artist
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 935
Location: Western USA.
Styles: The Pure Art

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the state of Arizona: 99% justified. I cannot speak for other states. Also, I say 99% simply because you may think you know the judicial system and foresee the outcome of a case, but sursprises are always prevelant. Just to be safe, 99% justified.

I would have most likely done something similar. Except, I carry a gun so I most likely would have simply shot the BG.
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"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." Einstein
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ItalianMuayThai
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 121

Styles: Muay Thai, TKD, Western Boxing

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

legally id bet my money hed catch something. But morally i think he was correct
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Sam
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 1748

Styles: ITF TKD, Wu Shu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah really depends on where you are.... and what sort of evidence is available.... CCTV etc.
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Menjo
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 1786
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it depends but im guessing he wouldn't get in trouble as long as a video camera was there and he could prove that the clerk's life was in danger.
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