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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 4:56 pm Post subject: Kake-kumite/Kakedameshi? |
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So...I have to admit...I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with kumite (組手).
Sure, with newer students, I understand the potential benefits of kumite, even though you are using a compliant partner in an non-combative situation. But, by the time you progress to jiyu-kumite (自由組手) or "free fighting", it generally has just devolved into a hot mess that is pretty much worthless.
Along those lines, I came across an article dealing with kakedameshi (掛け試し) or “testing through kake” and kake-kumite (掛け組手) "meeting of hands in kake/hook". Note....this is NOT kakie (カキエ) that you might be familiar with from an art like Goju-ryu.
As it was described (and if I am understanding correctly), kake-kumite is the "drill" just like sanbon kumite (三本組手) is a drill. Then kakedameshi is like a "challenge match" between non-compliant partners. As described, the challenge is between students in the school or just two random folks on the street. Either would consist of striking, grappling, seizing/controlling, takedowns, etc.
So, I am curious to know...anyone have any experience with this? Or potentially more information? I was hoping that Wastelander might since there is supposedly a strong relationship to Motobu-ryu (and Motubu Choki) and he has a connection to Motobu-ryu.
Any information would be greatly appreciated as is a potentially very interesting area of study and research.
Thanks!
_________________
For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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If I may offer a perspective from a Korean Karate/Boxing hybrid. What I learned and what I currently teach is what people call "boring stuff"
I get them in front of the mirror and they have the DRILL footwork left and right, center, circle. This + flexibility and basic techniques. Fact is, if you can't move in different direction then you end up with bad foundation because everything starts from the ground up. No footwork+ sparring= sloppy brawl.
I have trained with a legendary boxing coach and he is all about the footwork. Move and punch from every direction. Now we add this to Korean Karate which is TKD/TSD which is bouncing and kicking. A mobile fighter is hard to deal with.
There is a saying in boxing" if the guy has better footwork than you, prepare for a LONG night"
This is why I do not like heavy bags. Guys get flat footed and complacent and just want to mindlessly wail on it. Same thing with Kumite, it just turns in to an abomination if proper fundamentals and footwork are not covered. For me, I take it to EXCESSIVELY OBSESSED levels of just footwork. Single steps, weight transfer, foot rotation, jumping in and out, bouncing up and down as well as forward and back and shuffling. Afterwards strikes and other skills are added.
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It begins with the knowledge that the severity of a strikes impact is amplified by a smaller surface area. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Kake-kumite/Kakedameshi? |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
So...I have to admit...I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with kumite (組手).
Sure, with newer students, I understand the potential benefits of kumite, even though you are using a compliant partner in an non-combative situation. But, by the time you progress to jiyu-kumite (自由組手) or "free fighting", it generally has just devolved into a hot mess that is pretty much worthless.
Along those lines, I came across an article dealing with kakedameshi (掛け試し) or “testing through kake” and kake-kumite (掛け組手) "meeting of hands in kake/hook". Note....this is NOT kakie (カキエ) that you might be familiar with from an art like Goju-ryu.
As it was described (and if I am understanding correctly), kake-kumite is the "drill" just like sanbon kumite (三本組手) is a drill. Then kakedameshi is like a "challenge match" between non-compliant partners. As described, the challenge is between students in the school or just two random folks on the street. Either would consist of striking, grappling, seizing/controlling, takedowns, etc.
So, I am curious to know...anyone have any experience with this? Or potentially more information? I was hoping that Wastelander might since there is supposedly a strong relationship to Motobu-ryu (and Motubu Choki) and he has a connection to Motobu-ryu.
Any information would be greatly appreciated as is a potentially very interesting area of study and research.
Thanks! |
Well, for clarity, I'll say that I don't technically have a connection to Motobu-Ryu, aside from the fact that I practice Motobu Udundi's Shuri Sanchin, which is part of the Bugeikan curriculum. I have done a lot of research, however, and definitely learned kakedameshi in my training, although not necessarily by that name.
Kakedameshi is, without a doubt, my favorite way to spar. I definitely see value in other forms of sparring, though, and I do have students engage in them, as my late Sensei did; kickboxing-style, MMA-style, striker vs grappler, puncher vs kicker, grappling-only, grappling with strikes, clinch sparring, "kata randori," "Bully Sparring," scenario exercises, etc. Personally, I think all of these types of sparring have value, but they all have more value when they are approached as training methods, rather than as end goals, which is how most modern karate schools treat sparring.
In my experience, kakedameshi can be approached in (essentially) two ways. One method is more-or-less what you see Bruce Lee do in Enter The Dragon--two people crossing the arms at the wrist and trying to attack each other from that position before the other can react or counter. This is, by all accounts, how Motobu Choki challenged Funakoshi Gichin in Tokyo, when he said that "to strike him would be too much," and instead threw Funakoshi to the ground with wrist locks several times. That isn't to say that Motobu didn't engage in other forms of kakedameshi, though, and we know that he engaged in other types of sparring, such as when he sparred with Matsumora Kosaku, and bloodied his teeth. Nagamine Shoshin, who trained with Motobu, described kakedameshi is being more like "very aggressive" Chinese tuishou (pushing hands) competitions, which included striking and locking. For those who don't know how tuishou is done, the competitors start with either both hands crossed at the wrists, or one hand crossed (as in kakie) with the other on their opponent's elbow, and they begin by moving their arms around, staying connected, before attempting to throw each other. Maeshiro Morinobu, who is still actively teaching on Okinawa, approaches it this way. This second approach is my preference, personally, as well.
The benefits of this sort of sparring, over others, would be the enforcement of close-range engagement and the development of tactile sensitivity and muchimidi. It is, IMO, the best format for exploring and pressure-testing kata applications before putting them into context through things like "kata randori," "Bully Sparring," and scenario exercises.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Great explanation, Noah.
Tatusjin, this is great question, and I look forward to seeing more answers!
I hope Bob chimes in. I believe we played with this a little bit when we got together, didn't we Bob? If I recall, it ended with me on the ground a few times. I'm not sure that we trained it to it's fullest extent, due to my newness to the subject, but I believe we did train it.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
Great explanation, Noah.
Tatusjin, this is great question, and I look forward to seeing more answers!
I hope Bob chimes in. I believe we played with this a little bit when we got together, didn't we Bob? If I recall, it ended with me on the ground a few times. I'm not sure that we trained it to it's fullest extent, due to my newness to the subject, but I believe we did train it. |
Yes, we did, Brian; not to its full extent due to you being new to that type of training.
Both hands working together...attacking and defending at the same time...arms bridging...pushing and pulling...alert tangible instinct...dominating opponent's movements. Basically, it's free sparring with a hands-on twist.
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on the post.
