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Would you incorporate kakedameshi into your training
I already do
57%
 57%  [ 4 ]
Yes
42%
 42%  [ 3 ]
No
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 7

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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Posts: 2431
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Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Kakedameshi, and why karateka should do it Reply with quote

Bear with me--this is a long one...

Kakedameshi means "connecting/crossing/hooking to test," depending on how you interpret the first portion of the word, and as the translation suggests, refers to a method of pressure testing or sparring. Masters like Motobu, Nagamine, and Funakoshi wrote about it in their books, and while some schools still practice it, today, it has fallen out of fashion. Indeed, there are many people who have never even heard of it, or misinterpret it, believing that it refers to "street fights."

This is unfortunate, as kakedameshi is a far more appropriate method of sparring using kata movements than the long-range sparring developed on mainland Japan, which became the popular sparring method for karate. That more popular method is very poorly suited to the classical methods of karate that are contained in the kata, however. Rory Miller, an expert on violence and personal security, has actually addressed this before, saying; "When I look at their kata and kihon, they have possibly the best body mechanics for infighting that I've seen... then they choose to test it at sparring range, where it sucks. Or, worse, point contact range where it sucks AND it screws up everybody's sense of distance and time."

So what is kakedameshi, exactly? Well, defining it is difficult, as it can be approached in a variety of ways and it isn't a competition format (yet, although I'm working on putting something together for that). In general, though, it is a method of sparring where the participants remain close, and attempt to maintain at least one point of contact with each other at all times. Nagamine Shoshin described it as being like "very aggressive Chinese pushing hands competition," because the opponents touch their arms together, and attempt to manipulate each other through limb control while utilizing that connection to feel what the other person is trying to do, and avoid or counter it. We also know that strikes, locks, chokes, and takedowns are meant to be used in kakedameshi.

All told, what you end up with is something like a blend of pushing hands competition and Muay Thai clinch sparring--if you look up those two things on YouTube, and keep in mind to add joint locks and chokes, you will have a reasonable idea of what kakedameshi is. It is a specialized type of sparring, certainly, as it doesn't account for longer ranges, or specific habitual acts of violence, both of which you should be including in your pressure testing methodology. Since most karateka only spar at point fighting range, or kickboxing range, however, this specialized sparring method becomes very important, especially for those concerned with self defense, as the majority of self defense situations occur at close range.

From my perspective, kakedameshi can be approached as a spectrum, although you could broadly classify it as kakedameshi-ju (soft kakedameshi) and kakedameshi-go (hard kakedameshi). The soft approach is not really meant to pressure test, so much as it is develop skills. Neither partner is trying to resist anything with strength or speed, but rather trying to find ways to avoid or redirect, while staying relaxed and going with the flow. The idea is to develop tactile sensitivity, to be able to tell what an opponent is doing by touch, and to help figure out when you can best apply certain techniques at that range. Kakedameshi-go, on the other hand, is where participants actively resist and counter each other, as one would expect from sparring, and while they are still intended to remain at close range, connected to each other, relaxation and flow aren't the emphasis. Of course, these are not two distinct approaches, but rather a spectrum from one to the other--one might begin kakedameshi-ju, and over the course of a training session, add more resistance, speed, and power, to transition into kakedameshi-go.

Even within these approaches, one can be fairly granular. Perhaps, you need to specifically work on getting to a particular joint lock, for example. Kakedameshi-ju is a good start, but you may also want to isolate your session so that you are only allowed to use joint locks, and perhaps your partner can do everything, or perhaps only strikes, if you are trying to counter those, or just their own joint locks. By picking and choosing the specific technique sets used in the session, you can isolate methods that need to be focused on for improvement.

As I mentioned, this is not the be-all, end-all sparring method. When people think of "sparring," they often think of one type of training, when it should really be a variety of methods used to cover a variety of ranges and skills. Kakedameshi allows you to focus on developing your close range fighting methods, especially those found in the kata. Point sparring and kickboxing-style sparring give you the chance to focus on long range strikes. Randori (grappling sparring) gives you the chance to focus on just the grappling methods of your art. MMA-style sparring allows you to blend all of the ranges together. "Bully sparring," self defense scenario sparring, and bodyguard sparring, give you the chance to work those same skills in a specific context that karate was meant for. If you only do one type of sparring, then you are limiting the development of your skillsets, but by combining them, you can become a much more well-rounded martial artist.
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Fat Cobra
Orange Belt
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Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 166
Location: Fort Drum, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander, this is an excellent idea and one that is absolutely necessary for practicing self defense (vs. sparring). We do something similar, though we call it Tuite Drills (maybe it was called Kakedameshi in the past, but that has been lost). These are close in drills where we focus on countering strikes and grabs, using strikes, Tuite Jutsu (Joint Locks), and Kyusho Jutsu (pressure points). Resistance varies on these drills.

I also use Bogu gear in these drills to make them tougher. Many use Bogu gear for free form sparring (at fighting range, not close-in self defense range). There is a place for this, but I prefer using them in close in range.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything that can increase the betterment of the MAist can only be a positive.

Quote:
So what is kakedameshi, exactly? Well, defining it is difficult, as it can be approached in a variety of ways and it isn't a competition format (yet, although I'm working on putting something together for that). In general, though, it is a method of sparring where the participants remain close, and attempt to maintain at least one point of contact with each other at all times. Nagamine Shoshin described it as being like "very aggressive Chinese pushing hands competition," because the opponents touch their arms together, and attempt to manipulate each other through limb control while utilizing that connection to feel what the other person is trying to do, and avoid or counter it. We also know that strikes, locks, chokes, and takedowns are meant to be used in kakedameshi.

We promote and teach the close range techniques, the closer the better, and our goal is to get behind our opponent, as often as possible. If it's not feasible enough to get behind our opponent, then remaining up close and personal is quite acceptable.

Cut the distance by remaining in the close range proximity with our opponent that is where most MAist shy away from due to the uncomfortable feeling that that type of combat. We describe this our brand of close range techniques as it being akin to being claustrophobic.

It's just not for everyone, and most assuredly, what Noah is offering here is quite worth to explore....taste as see if it's good for your MA betterment. Surely, it can't hurt to try, you just might like it.



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27760
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like what you've laid out here, and I think it is definitely something that should be observed for any style working with a foundation in forms/kata.

The way you described it in the first paragraph, the image I got in my head was of the tournament fighting scenes in Enter The Dragon, where they lined up with contact wrist-to-wrist, and then fought from there. I'm not sure if this is right or not, but this is where my mind went in your initial description.

When Bob and I trained together, Bob showed me some drilling work with this kind of focus, and I think it is very valuable, and like you said, once the gist of it is picked up, it can easily be modified to incorporate variations.

I do hope you are able to post some examples of this on your channel; being able to put pictures to the words will really open things up. Thanks for sharing this, and I look forward to the continued discussion!
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2431
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fat Cobra wrote:
Wastelander, this is an excellent idea and one that is absolutely necessary for practicing self defense (vs. sparring). We do something similar, though we call it Tuite Drills (maybe it was called Kakedameshi in the past, but that has been lost). These are close in drills where we focus on countering strikes and grabs, using strikes, Tuite Jutsu (Joint Locks), and Kyusho Jutsu (pressure points). Resistance varies on these drills.

I also use Bogu gear in these drills to make them tougher. Many use Bogu gear for free form sparring (at fighting range, not close-in self defense range). There is a place for this, but I prefer using them in close in range.


I wouldn't necessarily call kakedameshi a drill, since it is supposed to be free-form, like sparring, but for a specific context. We could certainly just be using different terms for the same thing, though

sensei8 wrote:
Anything that can increase the betterment of the MAist can only be a positive.

Quote:
So what is kakedameshi, exactly? Well, defining it is difficult, as it can be approached in a variety of ways and it isn't a competition format (yet, although I'm working on putting something together for that). In general, though, it is a method of sparring where the participants remain close, and attempt to maintain at least one point of contact with each other at all times. Nagamine Shoshin described it as being like "very aggressive Chinese pushing hands competition," because the opponents touch their arms together, and attempt to manipulate each other through limb control while utilizing that connection to feel what the other person is trying to do, and avoid or counter it. We also know that strikes, locks, chokes, and takedowns are meant to be used in kakedameshi.

We promote and teach the close range techniques, the closer the better, and our goal is to get behind our opponent, as often as possible. If it's not feasible enough to get behind our opponent, then remaining up close and personal is quite acceptable.

Cut the distance by remaining in the close range proximity with our opponent that is where most MAist shy away from due to the uncomfortable feeling that that type of combat. We describe this our brand of close range techniques as it being akin to being claustrophobic.

It's just not for everyone, and most assuredly, what Noah is offering here is quite worth to explore....taste as see if it's good for your MA betterment. Surely, it can't hurt to try, you just might like it.




Thank you! I know that training at close range like that does make some people uncomfortable, but I definitely find it very valuable!

bushido_man96 wrote:
I like what you've laid out here, and I think it is definitely something that should be observed for any style working with a foundation in forms/kata.

The way you described it in the first paragraph, the image I got in my head was of the tournament fighting scenes in Enter The Dragon, where they lined up with contact wrist-to-wrist, and then fought from there. I'm not sure if this is right or not, but this is where my mind went in your initial description.

When Bob and I trained together, Bob showed me some drilling work with this kind of focus, and I think it is very valuable, and like you said, once the gist of it is picked up, it can easily be modified to incorporate variations.

I do hope you are able to post some examples of this on your channel; being able to put pictures to the words will really open things up. Thanks for sharing this, and I look forward to the continued discussion!


The wrist-to-wrist scene you're talking about can definitely be one of the positions in kakedameshi. I typically try to stay connected to both arms, unless I'm actively executing a technique, though, so I'm not usually in that particular position quite so long. I have recorded some light kakedameshi, focused on flow and not really worrying about resistance or strength, although I haven't recorded harder kakedameshi. I mostly did that with my Sensei, before he passed, and I wish I had video of it. Now there are only two people in the dojo I can do that with, on occasion, and it's usually rather spontaneous, so I don't set up a camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbbrXH9QKIU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85TyUOWckR8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPrZ0db67io
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the videos, Noah. The third one wouldn't play for me, but the first two were very informative. I could see very many places where I envisioned my son shooting a takedown or working some other wrestling maneuver. I think something like this can be very helpful in training.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14405
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not for anything, Noah, but where was the 3rd video shot?? Thanks!!



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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2431
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Thanks for sharing the videos, Noah. The third one wouldn't play for me, but the first two were very informative. I could see very many places where I envisioned my son shooting a takedown or working some other wrestling maneuver. I think something like this can be very helpful in training.


Thanks! I like mixing in various takedowns, as well, and it's always fun doing it with people who wrestle

sensei8 wrote:
Not for anything, Noah, but where was the 3rd video shot?? Thanks!!




It's in the smaller training floor in our dojo--the same room we filmed our Waza Wednesdays in
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Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage, Jeff Allred
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Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Not for anything, Noah, but where was the 3rd video shot?? Thanks!!




It's in the smaller training floor in our dojo--the same room we filmed our Waza Wednesdays in

That space is a nice addition to your main training floor!! Thanks, Noah!!



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