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jpsfl1791
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Joined: 13 Jan 2021
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Location: Tampa

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:38 pm    Post subject: Kali Reply with quote

[i]who trains in Kali and can give information on its practically?[color=red][/color][/i]
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RW
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no done kali as a standalone art.

But my dojo offered kali and then a well known kali guy gave a bunch of seminars and since I *used* to like kali (up to the point I went to the seminars, I stopped liking it after the seminars) I went to several of them.

My problem with kali is that it's too based in flows. "Oh, I will do A because the other guy will do B, then I will do C because he will do D. Then we will switch round and he will to A because I did B....". Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm2SvfQnD5s

another problem I have is the sticks aren's such a good weapon, is it? They're sticks alright. They may be easy to move, but they lack weight and power. Imagine the damage a baseball bat can do. A single kali stick strike is not going to do that.

sure, the kali stick is supposed to represent a machete... but it's nothing like a machete. machetes are flat and have an edge. Hit something with the side of a machete and it does nothing, but with a stick, you got no way of telling.
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tatsujin
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
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Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main background in kali/escrima/arnis comes from the late Remy Presas. In addition to that, Bobby Taboada of Balintawak. Latosa Escrima and also Bruce Chiu from Arnis (one of the best teachers I have ever seen). Also, to some degree, Michael Janich. But with him it is knife based work mostly, but it does come from kali/escrima/arnis systems. And, lastly, Arnis (and other things) from Datu Kelly Worden. I should say that I have learned some very nice things from the works of Datu Dieter Knuettel, but never had the opportunity to train under him personally.

Quote:
My problem with kali is that it's too based in flows. "Oh, I will do A because the other guy will do B, then I will do C because he will do D. Then we will switch round and he will to A because I did B...."


You are 100% correct that kali/escrima/arnis does center or key in on flows or flow drills. To quote the late great Remy Presas,

"Go with de plow" (for those that know Remy get the inside joke)

But, I would venture to say that whomever you did your kali training with did not do a good job of explaining flow drills and why they are used.

In a nutshell, the flow drills are designed to shorten and fix the "gap" that all of we humans have. An example...

Patty Cake...yes, patty cake...the old game that some or at least most of us played as kids. Try this in your school...with your students or training partners.

If you take a set of known (to both participants) patty cake "drills", what you will find is that when a "move" is missed or messed up, at least one of the participants "freezes". They missed the hand, they used the wrong hand, the hand hit in the wrong place, etc. Regardless of what happened specifically, they "glitch". They stop. They break the "flow".

The point of these drills are not so much that you are going to do A because the guy did B. It is to get to the point where when something like that happens, you keep going and don't "glitch". Or, at least in the beginning, you don't glitch as much. As you continue to work on all of these flow drills, the glitch becomes smaller and smaller so that it becomes virtually non-existent.

The main objective here is to learn the drills to reduce this gap and internalize them such that you can get to a point of "free flow". So, if someone uses a #1 strike (forehand right hand strike to the head), I can then block it two (2) different ways stick on stick, I can check with the off hand and then strike to numerous different targets with my stick, using a hard "block" or stop, I can do a stick disarm or I can use my stick to attack the attacking hand or arm (defanging the snake). Just as a short list...

And, just so you know, this "patty cake" style drill is the first thing I teach people in Arnis classes (as a precursor to learning single sinawali). I also use it as a teaching method in Ryukyu Kempo.

Quote:
another problem I have is the sticks aren's such a good weapon, is it? They're sticks alright. They may be easy to move, but they lack weight and power. Imagine the damage a baseball bat can do. A single kali stick strike is not going to do that.


Well, a gun is a better weapon than both a stick AND a baseball bat. And, it is easier (in many places) to carry. For instance, my state has open carry laws. And, regardless of training, I pretty much carry a pistol on me every time I leave the house. But...back to your comment...

If you go on the interwebs and try to find something definitive as to how much force is necessary to fracture the human skull, you will find 20 bazillion different answers (which plate is being hit, newtons, PSI, etc.). Make it simple and use an imaginary scale of 1 to 10. 1 being just a "love tap" that basically does nothing to 10 being a major skull fracture and causing near immediate or immediate death. And 5 would be a knockout.

Let's say that a baseball bat can, indeed, cause a "level 10 trauma". And then let's say that an arnis stick can cause a "level 7 trauma". Is the difference here really all that important? It's like folks on gun forums arguing about the stopping power of a .45 as compared to a 9mm. If you land 2 center mass with either, is the difference all that important at the end of the day?

Additionally, look at the limitations of the bat. How well can you wield a bat one handed? To deliver a "level 10" type of strike, how many ways are there to do that with a bat? And what kind of disadvantageous positions does that put you into? Compare that to how many different ways your can do a "level 7 strike" with an arnis/kali/excrima stick. And you can do it one handed, leaving you the other hand to still bring into play...and there would be (easily) dozens of different ways to deliver it. At the end of the day, if you took someone reasonably trained in escrima/kali/arnis and pitted them against someone handed a bat, I am going to put my money on the escrima/kali/arnis guy. Your mileage may vary...
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GS718Trek
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Joined: 08 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am very impressed with Bobby Taboada youtube vids. He is amazing and really show cases Kali. Check out Jesse Enkamps episode on Karate's connection to Kali
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tatsujin
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
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Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GS718Trek wrote:
I am very impressed with Bobby Taboada youtube vids. He is amazing and really show cases Kali. Check out Jesse Enkamps episode on Karate's connection to Kali


Back in the day (very early 1990s?), Bobby was a killer (almost literally). Fortunately (especially for those training with him), he mellowed a little with age.
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For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously.
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tatsujin
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
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Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since someone mention Bobby, please have a look at the following video. This is not a "you do A, so I do B" kind of drill. Most of these folks are high end students under Bobby. They do more in showing what I was referring to as "shortening the gap" than I could ever type on a keyboard....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yMj3FymG8k
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For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously.
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GS718Trek
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Joined: 08 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out Karate Nerds episode of him discovering the shared roots of Karate and Kali, very delightful episode of him training with Johan Skålberg
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