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danbong
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 178
Location: Lihue, HI
Styles: cho hwa mo yang do

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Karate cuts 10 - 15 years of your lifespan Reply with quote

xo-karate wrote:
Karate Styles: Surprising Links to Shortened Lifespan
Jason Amstrong just published a book that karate does not make you live longer - it cuts years of your life - 10 to 15.


JasonA wrote:
Our study, included numerous contributing clinicians, and a 2nd key author from the University of South Australia, and it used an evidenced based approach analyzing the data of the lives of 118 lifelong karate-ka who were 8th dan(s), style founders or successors.


A study of 118 lifelong karate-ka who were 8th dan(s), style founders or successors would not support any conclusions about the effects on lifespan of the typical karate-ka. Apart from the issue of a sample size of only 118 compared to millions of practitioners, there is the composition of the sample itself which is not reflective of the group of karate-ka as a whole. This is know as the fallacy of faulty generalization. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

A chart showing the relative lifespans of 5 notable shuri-te masters compared to other groups is shown in Figure 4-4 on page 101 of Shotokan's Secret by Bruce D. Clayton, Ph.D.

In a couple of hours I put together this list of senior martial artists of styles that contained a significant striking component (as compared to only karate) that were founders, inheritors or creators of offshoots with significant differences or innovations from their parents art. Either their lifespan or year of birth is given.

Gordon Doversola 77
Adriano Emperado 82.8
William Chow 73
James Mitose 64 (in prison - diabetes)
Choi Yong-Sool 82
Ji Han-Jae b1936
Myung Jae Nam 61 stomach cancer
Suh In-Hyuk b1942
Gichin Funakoshi 89
Mas Oyama 71 lung cancer - non-smoker
Fumio Demura b1938
Kenwa Mabuni 63
Ankō Itosu 84
Matsumura Sōkon ~91
Yip Man 79 throat cancer
Chuck Norris b1940
Ed Parker 59 heart attack
Jimmy Woo ~81
Hironori Ōtsuka 89
Tak Kubota b1934
Choi Hong Hi 83
Tatsuo Shimabuku 69 stroke
Chotoku Kyan 75 self-starved at end of WWII
Chōjun Miyagi 65
Higaonna Kanryō 62
Arakaki Seishō 78
Dan Inosanto b1936
Seiyu Oyata 84
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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm...

A karate master died aged 70, so to loose 10-15 years would suggest he could have bene 80-85!

Another Karate master (still alive today) is 78.....so should he die now, he would have been of an age from 88 to 93!


Consider the expectancy of any human:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

umm....we really sure we want to subscribe to such .... research?

p.s.
2009: Lu Zijian on the 2nd January became the oldest person in the world and was 116 years old.

So he could have lived until 126-131 years of age?

.... but he got a book published !
That must be worth a bit of loose change!

Agree, see the value or worth in this, want to consider another sport or less active life....?

...nah!
I could fall under a bus tomorrow!
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A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate.
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JasonA
White Belt
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 6
Location: USA
Styles: Shito-Ryu

PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many commenting in this thread need to understand how lifespan is measured, and how statistics are run. I suspect most comments here are obviously not by someone with a PhD involved with stats and the study used someone who is. The other athlete studies, such as Olympians and athletes in other sports which are compared, also came from Journal/peer reviewed University studies with similar sample sizes. To suggest that they are all wrong as well because they used sample sizes even smaller than this karate study is a bizarre conclusion (especially when such data published in highly regarded medical science journals). The significance in the data of the examples & analysis was tested very thoroughly - you really should read a study first, have a statistician guide you through the basics of the stats chapter and then start commenting. Just a thought, after all the point of the study/book is not to speculate with limited rigor but use best practice stat analysis across styles, modern karate-ka and also reflect on previous generation karate - all while considering many the other factors in their lives and the trends that may be coming in future years. For the most part, this forum seems to have people trying to sum things up in one paragraph, or put a single number on things - it simply is not that simple. The study/book provides 250+ pages of data, references, caveats, region & style issues and dojo sub-cultures i.e. too complex a topic to try and label things with a simple conclusion...
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mal103
Purple Belt
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Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559


PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem here is that the original post was a one liner that stated practising Karate shortens your life.
Most people here seem to see that they are a lot fitter than others their own age and/or they train with older people who are still very active and fit.

Obviously we shouldn't have a say on an open forum because we are not all PhD's and don't all study statistics.... Excuse us for stating the blinking obvious based on our own real world experiences when we should have studied statistics to find out all our answers instead. We would probably deducted that most things are bad for us and gone off to live a boring life eating fruit and exercising gently.

The only way you can make this a truthful statement is to study ALL Karate-ka, but how can you tell if they would have lived longer if they didn't train in Karate?
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Lupin1
KF Sempai
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Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1603
Location: NH USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another problem is the wording of the topic itself "Karate cuts 10-15 years of your lifespan". Even if the research could prove conclusively that people who practice karate live 10-15 years less than those who don't, it would have to show there are no mitigating factors and that studying karate itself is what's causing that.
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JasonA
White Belt
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 6
Location: USA
Styles: Shito-Ryu

PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mal103, to answer your question on why 118 karate-ka? As the book clearly outlines, we are looking at 8th dans, style founders and style successors i.e. true experts who spent their lifetime training and who were recognized by traditional lineages as the "who's who" of karate. We were not interested in everyone who studies karate, and may or may not have trained daily, may or may not have been truly the best in their style, may or may not have embraced the cultural habits of their style etc.. So info was pulled from historical perspectives such as "Unante" etc. and polling a number of still living 7th & 8th dans. While we may not have got every single style founder we certainly have most of them (there simply are not thousands in this elite category - both those dying in recent years back to those dying early after WWII (deaths prior to WWII were not included due to the effects of WWII on lifespan and other issues described in the book in detail) The pools for judo, comparison to other martial arts and other sports were all of course different in their own right as described in the book. Hope that helps.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14254
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that training in the MA shortens ones life, and in that, I believe that no day is guaranteed to anyone. Therefore, we'll die when we die and not before than; MA training or not.

Imho!!


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lowereastside
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Joined: 31 Jan 2013
Posts: 211

Styles: kung fu

PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Karate cuts 10 - 15 years of your lifespan Reply with quote

sensei8 says - "I believe that no day is guaranteed to anyone"

So True So True - My Wife told me that the other day a women 6 months pregnant was struck by a falling tree branch while walking in the park - both mother and child died. I guess I'm just venting - but when Sensei8 posted the above quote - all I could think about was that poor women and child. Sorry for going a little off course on this. Oh! Sensei8 -well said.
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mal103
Purple Belt
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Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonA wrote:
mal103, to answer your question on why 118 karate-ka? As the book clearly outlines, we are looking at 8th dans, style founders and style successors i.e. true experts who spent their lifetime training and who were recognized by traditional lineages as the "who's who" of karate. We were not interested in everyone who studies karate, and may or may not have trained daily, may or may not have been truly the best in their style, may or may not have embraced the cultural habits of their style etc.. So info was pulled from historical perspectives such as "Unante" etc. and polling a number of still living 7th & 8th dans. While we may not have got every single style founder we certainly have most of them (there simply are not thousands in this elite category - both those dying in recent years back to those dying early after WWII (deaths prior to WWII were not included due to the effects of WWII on lifespan and other issues described in the book in detail) The pools for judo, comparison to other martial arts and other sports were all of course different in their own right as described in the book. Hope that helps.


So the original poster should have entitled this topic as long term practicing of Karate by a selected few potential masters/founders may have shortened their life a bit, instead it was a shock title of Karate reduces your life.

Gichin Funakoshi - according to his book - lived many years in poverty and did odd jobs to pay for his rent and food. However he lived to his 90's?
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llbark
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Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 4


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I work in the healthcare industry and in answer to those that question lifespan statistcs, the study discussed in this thread used the same industry and research standards that are used by life insurane agencies, national health bodies, medical university studies etc. So I don't really understad why they are being questioned as an approach backed up by the appropriate statistics. In fact, 118 people is not a small number compared to many patient group studies when being compared to the larger population lifespan data via wat is called life expectacy at birth prediction tables and life at death prediction tables etc.

Karate of course is not the only sport that appears to reduce lifespan and the book talks about some others - other studies like this one also tease out the variables around diet, region, occupation, training types, psychology and the list goes on. As the book states in one part, peolpe have to be aware of the difference in exercise in regards to whther we are training for health, fitness or enjoyment as they are all different things (and the government health bodies recognize this).

mal: you really should look at the book, as the questions you keep asking are addressed in it. For example, your last comment re Funakoshi is a good question and it is dissected in the study/book in multiple places (covering the different variables) very thoroughly as why he, and a number of others, likely bucked the trend.
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