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llbark
White Belt
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Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 4


PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:36 am    Post subject: Re: Karate cuts 10 - 15 years of your lifespan Reply with quote

danbong wrote:
xo-karate wrote:
Karate Styles: Surprising Links to Shortened Lifespan
Jason Amstrong just published a book that karate does not make you live longer - it cuts years of your life - 10 to 15.


JasonA wrote:
Our study, included numerous contributing clinicians, and a 2nd key author from the University of South Australia, and it used an evidenced based approach analyzing the data of the lives of 118 lifelong karate-ka who were 8th dan(s), style founders or successors.


llbark wrote:
I work in the healthcare industry and in answer to those that question lifespan statistcs, the study discussed in this thread used the same industry and research standards that are used by life insurane agencies, national health bodies, medical university studies etc. So I don't really understad why they are being questioned as an approach backed up by the appropriate statistics. In fact, 118 people is not a small number compared to many patient group studies when being compared to the larger population lifespan data via wat is called life expectacy at birth prediction tables and life at death prediction tables etc. Your list below may be biased in selecting only those known that happen to live to an old age...


A study of 118 lifelong karate-ka who were 8th dan(s), style founders or successors would not support any conclusions about the effects on lifespan of the typical karate-ka. Apart from the issue of a sample size of only 118 compared to millions of practitioners, there is the composition of the sample itself which is not reflective of the group of karate-ka as a whole. This is know as the fallacy of faulty generalization. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

A chart showing the relative lifespans of 5 notable shuri-te masters compared to other groups is shown in Figure 4-4 on page 101 of Shotokan's Secret by Bruce D. Clayton, Ph.D.

In a couple of hours I put together this list of senior martial artists of styles that contained a significant striking component (as compared to only karate) that were founders, inheritors or creators of offshoots with significant differences or innovations from their parents art. Either their lifespan or year of birth is given.

Gordon Doversola 77
Adriano Emperado 82.8
William Chow 73
James Mitose 64 (in prison - diabetes)
Choi Yong-Sool 82
Ji Han-Jae b1936
Myung Jae Nam 61 stomach cancer
Suh In-Hyuk b1942
Gichin Funakoshi 89
Mas Oyama 71 lung cancer - non-smoker
Fumio Demura b1938
Kenwa Mabuni 63
Ankō Itosu 84
Matsumura Sōkon ~91
Yip Man 79 throat cancer
Chuck Norris b1940
Ed Parker 59 heart attack
Jimmy Woo ~81
Hironori Ōtsuka 89
Tak Kubota b1934
Choi Hong Hi 83
Tatsuo Shimabuku 69 stroke
Chotoku Kyan 75 self-starved at end of WWII
Chōjun Miyagi 65
Higaonna Kanryō 62
Arakaki Seishō 78
Dan Inosanto b1936
Seiyu Oyata 84
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guird
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Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 198

Styles: BJJ, MMA, Gongkwon Yusul

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of people are rejecting the research based on anecdotal examples. If the study is correct, it doesn't mean that every karateka dies 15 years below the average life expectancy. Statistically speaking, it's almost certain that there would be elderly practitioners.

I would like to see his research methodology before I draw conclusions about the validity of his research. I'm not going to reject it just because there is someone in my dojo who is old an healthy.
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mal103
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Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559


PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confident that you can bend statistics to make them fit any situation, not long ago someone got an Oscar for convincing us that we were all going to fry as the planet gets much hotter and used convincing stats, most of the argument has been disproved by others taking a different look at the same data.

I don't disbelieve that a study of some senior Karateka may have had reduced life expectancy, I am just annoyed that ridiculous statements like the OP are used to scare us into thinking we are doing something bad for our health.
We are told every day that certain foods, drinks or activities are bad for us but are told out of context, like drinking 3 bottles of red wine a day is bad for you but the odd glass is good for you. There are loads of these reports normally fed to us by a newspaper who will make a broad shock statement like the OP.

In todays news we are being told that nearly half the UK population will be classed as Obese within the next 20-30 odd years, do we really need shock statements that state an exercise is bad for us?
I see the evidence every day/week that Karate has great benifits to our health, I also can see a few senior Karateka that only teach and who are no longer fit and healthy.

The original statement makes you think that doing Karate will somehow be bad for your health, but suggests to me that not doing Karate (or anything) will be better for you? That's how it reads.
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llbark
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Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 4


PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mal103 wrote:
I'm confident that you can bend statistics to make them fit any situation, not long ago someone got an Oscar for convincing us that we were all going to fry as the planet gets much hotter and used convincing stats, most of the argument has been disproved by others taking a different look at the same data.

I don't disbelieve that a study of some senior Karateka may have had reduced life expectancy, I am just annoyed that ridiculous statements like the OP are used to scare us into thinking we are doing something bad for our health.
We are told every day that certain foods, drinks or activities are bad for us but are told out of context, like drinking 3 bottles of red wine a day is bad for you but the odd glass is good for you. There are loads of these reports normally fed to us by a newspaper who will make a broad shock statement like the OP.

In todays news we are being told that nearly half the UK population will be classed as Obese within the next 20-30 odd years, do we really need shock statements that state an exercise is bad for us?
I see the evidence every day/week that Karate has great benifits to our health, I also can see a few senior Karateka that only teach and who are no longer fit and healthy.

The original statement makes you think that doing Karate will somehow be bad for your health, but suggests to me that not doing Karate (or anything) will be better for you? That's how it reads.


The data is what it is, it was crunched by a researcher from the University of Adelaide (not Jason Armstrong) and it is not rocket science to gather all the founders of the major styles and run the statistics correctly... So I don't really understand why they are being questioned as an approach when backed up by both regionalised and normalised values for "mean age of death" and the more accurate "life expectancy at age of death".

You cannot really "bend/manipulate" such a simple list as is in the book - very few, if any, major style heads were left out according to the textbook Unante and other major texts that list the key karate-ka for the styles that have been most heavily propagated around the world.
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andym
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Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 487

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

STATISTICS :
A scientific friend of mine published a graph showing the correlation for rise in autism and organic food consumption. The graphs match ! So obviously.....he 'd done this to show the supposed link between autism and vaccines is a result of poor science and statistical manipulation.
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llbark
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Posts: 4


PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andym wrote:
STATISTICS :
A scientific friend of mine published a graph showing the correlation for rise in autism and organic food consumption. The graphs match ! So obviously.....he 'd done this to show the supposed link between autism and vaccines is a result of poor science and statistical manipulation.


I can only advise you to read something before you try and critique it. It is foreign to me how some people here are obviously forming a summary of something they have not reviewed/researched/read.... Simply dismissing something because it uses statistics is ridiculous in my eyes, that is how most engineering, medical and many other informed other decisions are made in the world (including cars, aircarft systems e.g MTB statistic = mean time between failure etc).

Karate is not the only anaerobic physical activity when done at high levels that appears to reduce/not help lifespan. Fitness, conditioning and health are all different things. The question is whether one wants to guess, or do some reading and research to become informed to understand what such links may be - be it physical or may also extend to karate culture/lifestyle in certain styles in some dojos/people....
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GojuRyu Bahrain
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Joined: 26 May 2013
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Styles: Goju Ryu, Shotokan, Kobudo, Uechi Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It rather seems that people with a shorter life expectancy are predestined to be great Karatekas. Correlation does not imply causality.
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6100
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GojuRyu Bahrain wrote:
It rather seems that people with a shorter life expectancy are predestined to be great Karatekas. Correlation does not imply causality.

This exactly.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14183
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Death isn't a respecter of person. When it's your time, it's your time. MA training, imho, doesn't take away 10-15 years of ones life. In the graph shown, some of those where into their 80's. To me, that's nothing to sneeze at; I'll take that.


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RW
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 317


PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Karate cuts 10 - 15 years of your lifespan Reply with quote

xo-karate wrote:
Karate Styles: Surprising Links to Shortened Lifespan
Jason Amstrong just published a book that karate does not make you live longer - it cuts years of your life - 10 to 15.

I'm old all ready so more training won't harm me:-)


Where can I read this study?

Anyway, the study is probably right, especially if you consider full contact styles like Kyokushin, or the joint damage that karate positions like zenkutsu dachi and kiba dachi cause.

Having said that... my reaction was "so?". If karate cuts 15 years of your life, I bet that having a completely sedentary lifestyle cuts 25 or 20. That's a 5 to 10 year gain then
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