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FortuneCookie
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 34
Location: Netherlands - Amsterdam
Styles: Kyo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Karate in combination with other MA's Reply with quote

Dear members,
Which other marshall art is a great add on on karate? Before my dojo went bankrupt (one month ago). I did savate next to it, some (savate)boxing hits like uppercut can be a great add on in karate techniques. Lets not forget about Ju Jitsu.

So what marshall art do you think will be a good combination to practice along Karate?


Thanks,
FortuneCookie
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29040
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say just about anything with a grappling background would be beneficial supplemental training to Karate.
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JiuJitsuNation
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Joined: 09 May 2010
Posts: 447
Location: ominpresent
Styles: BJJ Judo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would of course second that!
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe, I thought you might. Just thought I'd put in a plug for the grapplers!
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tallgeese
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6862
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definalty look at a grappling art to compliment your stand up. If you want to do ground fighting, get into BJJ for sure.
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
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Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446

Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I read, the more I am convinced that karate should be 80% grappling already. Why don't we all just rediscover our grappling heritage?
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tallgeese
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6862
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on your definition of grappling, that might be true. But the easy answer is - Because it is lost to time.

The massive amount of time spent decoding it from kata would be a huge effort. And while it might be culturally rewarding, it's not going to be time efficient. Further, there would be no true way to recreate the specific movements, just interperate into exsisting framework anyway. Better to go to the source that exsist now. Not to mention, there was a huge trend in the early 90's when BJJ first hit with the UFC where lots of traditional school went out of their way to "discover" grappling in kata. It was always, as far as I could see, an effort to take a rudimentary understanding of grappling and insert it into what people were already doing. It's a pet peeve of mine. Be proud of what your art does, and if it has a hole (which we all do) admit that and find a way to fill it.

Further, the grappling that often gets interperated from kata is tuite based. It revolves around standing joint manipulation and sweeps, reaps, throws, ect. Kata was intended to be a moving textbook, and not a simulated fight. Part of this text was showing/ describing specific patterns to destroy joints, put and adversary on the ground, ect. It harkens back to an era before jiu-jutsu (JJJ) and karate began to be taught seperatly.

People that can walk you thru this are hard to find. Additionally, I doubt that there was EVER a heavy influcence of what we consider grappling or ground fighting today that was covered in the old forms. If it were, we'd see a different methodology employed for forms.

Remember, way back in time, the old forms were battlefield tested modalities. So, a joint lock was not for defeating a mugger and escaping, it was for maipulating a weapon holding appendage into a position to break it and make it non functional. Not to control the limb, but to end the enemies primary ability to use the weapon of the day, a sword, against you.

Ground work as it is seen now is a highly individualized form. More suited to one on one self defense (or competitive arenas) than battlefield application in large scale. Most ground work in the day would have been to stand up. The intricate grappling practiced now would have been less than ideal under the conditions that first codified karate in ancient Japan. A soldier down was at the mercy of those still up. All focus would have been on standing him back up to deploy his weapons.

If you're interested in tuite and joint manipulations (which still have useage in sd today) then by all means find an instructor that can point you down the correct path by rediscovering those things. However, if you're thinking along the lines of ground fighting, it will be more time efficient and effective to simply find a good BJJ school than anything else.
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ps1
Black Belt
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Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree...a grappling art (my preference is BJJ, but I'm biased) would be a great addition.

Ueshirokarate wrote:
The more I read, the more I am convinced that karate should be 80% grappling already. Why don't we all just rediscover our grappling heritage?


Let's assume that you are completely correct and all forms of karate have the same level of grappling as BJJ...except that it's hidden in kata. The biggest problem that you'll have in "discovering" it is the intense training and sheer time required to get good at it. I've been studying BJJ for almost 7 years at 9 to 12 hours per week and am still only just ok at it. Many Karate practitioners have not/are not willing to put in that much time.

That said, why try to "discover or find" something that is already readily available in any decent BJJ academy or Judo school (depending on which facet you're looking at)? There is no shame in asking someone else for help.

I like to have fun with bunkai as much as the next guy...but the things it can't teach are the feeling required to be good at grappling...or stand fighting for that matter. It may be able to teach individual techniques...but Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is far more than the sum of it's parts.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29040
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ueshirokarate wrote:
The more I read, the more I am convinced that karate should be 80% grappling already. Why don't we all just rediscover our grappling heritage?


tallgeese wrote:
Not to mention, there was a huge trend in the early 90's when BJJ first hit with the UFC where lots of traditional school went out of their way to "discover" grappling in kata. It was always, as far as I could see, an effort to take a rudimentary understanding of grappling and insert it into what people were already doing.


In reading some of Iain Abernethey's books (many of whom think has gone out of the way from what Karate truly is, as far as bunkai goes) stated in one of his books that the katas contained no ground fighting. What he did do was study some grappling (Judo I think), and in his delving into figuring out what the interpretaion of kata moves were, figured out some ways to apply a few of them while on the ground. But, no ground fighting in the katas.

tallgeese wrote:
Be proud of what your art does, and if it has a hole (which we all do) admit that and find a way to fill it.


Agreed. I like to kick and punch, but have no ground game to speak of. Its a downfall of TKD, so I try to fill it with Hapkido, Aikido, and some grappling at the DT club when I can.
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Kuma
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Joined: 03 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karate and Judo are a terrific combination in my opinion.
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