karate origin wiki

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

What you say is true Spartacus. The Okinawans were influenced by many countries and thus their martial arts were as well.

What I know of the history of Okinawan martial arts is as follows; The Okinawans had their own indigenous arts which we know as Ti and Muto (if in Shuri) which most call Tegumi. They traded with the Siamese empire prior to China, Korea, etc. During this time and as you have already stated martial arts were part of the noble classes culture and as such Muay Boran and other fighting methods (most likely from Annan [Viet Nam] and Burma) were incorporated into the Okinawan's fighting methods. China played a huge role in both trade and cultural exchange. The Chinese sent emissaries to Okinawa and vice versa. We know based on what little documentation exists that Okinawan's like Matsumura traveled to and trained in Southern China and learned their arts. During this time Okinawa also traded with Tiawan, Korea and other countries and with the information we already know it is very plausible that the Okinawans exchanged culture and martial arts with these countries as well. You could say that Okinawa was a cultural sponge.

The Japanese also had some influence on the Okinawans and their fighting method. We know this because Matsumura trained with the Satsuma and learned the use of the sword (Kenjutsu) among other weapons and most likely their empty hand arts like Ju Jutsu.

The point I was making was that, yes, these cultures influenced what we call Karate but Karate can not be contributed to one or the other. This is because the Okinawans like Bruce Lee's famous quote took what was useful and incorporated it into their art. One can not contribute Karate as Chinese or Siamese or any other countries origin. It is uniquely Okinawan.

I was also pointing out that it most certainly can not be attributed to the Japanese unless you are talking about "Modern" Karate. It was brought to Japan and pretty much dumbed down to what you see today for two very distinct reasons. One the Japanese hated all things Chinese. Toudi (Karate) at the time had major influences from Quan Fa and this did not match the Japanese vision. Two the Japanese wanted everything to fit into a nice little package and Toudi at the time did not. It was taught differently from one teacher to another and there was no set consistent group of techniques from one style to another. It also was a combative art and did not fit into their ideal of Kendo, Iaido, Aikido, Judo, etc.

This is not to lay blame on the Japanese for the loss of combative applications. Itosu removed or disguised all combative application long before it was introduced to Japan. However the introduction changed the art further into what we now call Modern Karate or Karate Do.

Yes the art has been influenced heavily by the Chinese arts but one can not call it Chinese. To do so would be to ignore the original foundational arts of Ti, Muto and later the Siam influences among others. It is for all intents and purposes the first MMA. Cross training before it had a name.

You can whittle it down to the individual techniques and arts like, Muay Boran, Jiao Di (Shuai Jiao), Qin Na, Ti, Muto, Quan Fa, etc., that created it on the microscopic level and see that it can not be considered primarily one art or another. When you consider that all of these arts were merged into one you can only come to one conclusion... it's uniquely Okinawan.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll

Spartacus Maximus · Black Belt

The whole of karate is uniquely Okinawan so cannot be called anything else. What has been done by those who have studied and analyzed the content is a classification of the kata and techniques by their most likely origin.

This theory is explained in translations of the BuBishi as well as in Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan martial arts.

One general rule used to classify karate techniques is that closed hands(fists or knuckles) are Okinawan and open hands are Chinese. Another one is that the older a kata is the more Chinese influences it has. Examples from the Shorin styles include: kusanku, Chinto and Gojushiho.

This of course is a rather simplified classification because there are many technical aspects and principles of unclear origin in karate that cannot be clearly identified as Okinawan, Chinese or anything else.

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

pinklady6000 · Yellow Belt

there is no white crane techniques in karate. that wiki entry shoud be removed.
how to do that is a mystery, as they stubbonly refuse to remove anything that has been entered.
_________________
wild flowers

singularity6 · Pre-Black Belt

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

Pinklady,

I am not trying to be rude but after reading your styles I have no idea how someone that has not studied an art can make such an accusation about an art. What do Wrestling, Shinkicking and Jeet Kun Do have to do with Karate?

And I guess I'm going to have to be even more blunt and ask, "what in your experience has provided you with such an in-depth knowledge of an art you have not studied to be able to make such a firm statement as there is no white crane in Karate ?" Does any of the arts you have in your profile claim to have knowledge of Karate or about this very subject? If so what makes them experts in this field and give them enough personal knowledge via lineage or years of study and research to make such a claim?

Again I don't mean to come off as rude but I do not care for baseless claims from practitioners of other arts about an art they don't even study.

That would be akin to saying that Bruce Lee had no influence over JKD. It's stirring the pot is what it is.

If you can provide proof of your statements please do. If not please refrain from making statements about arts you don't even study.

My personal experience, just so you know, is over 35 years of study in Okinawan Toudi (Karate). I am not an expert nor do I hold all the mysteries of the art and do not claim to be all knowing but I can at least speak to the art and it's history based on my years of study and my personal research and that of my Shinshii and his.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll

Spartacus Maximus · Black Belt

It is of significant importance for martial arts history researchers to understand that there are several "crane styles". Most of these are or southern Chinese origin. There has been many comparative studies of these with certain Okinawan karate schools.

Notably styles of the Naha-te lineage. The founders of these, like their teachers before them were taught or influenced by Chinese experts. This is well documented and some of the most conclusive research on the subject in English is to be found in the books by Mark Bishop and Patrick McCarthy.

YouTube and other video media sites also have interesting demonstration of the obvious similarities between crane styles and Okinawan karate. As for specific kata or techniques influenced by or directly transmitted from Chinese crane styles; sanchin of goju ryu and Uechi ryu/ Pan gai noon and hakutsuru (literally: white crane) of Shorin ryu come to mind.

MatsuShinshii · Black Belt

	KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate	All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3