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pinklady6000
Yellow Belt
Joined: 04 Jun 2017
Posts: 74
Location: sheffield
Styles: wrestling, shinkicking, jkd
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 Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:16 am Post subject: karate origin wiki |
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according wikipedia karate oringinated from fujian white crane:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate
which I find suprising as I thought it came from jujitsu like judo?
pink
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Wikipedia isn't the best source out there. That being said, karate's exact history is somewhat debated. The most accepted version is karate was developed in Okinawa through a combination of Chinese martial arts (Fujian white crane is a major one, but not the only Chinese art) and Okinawa's own art of Ti/Toudi.
Karate was developed independently of Jujitsu, but I'd be surprised if there weren't any influences. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Karate is an amalgamation of native Okinawan ti'gwa, Siamese boxing, likely various other Indochinese arts, Japanese jujutsu and weapons arts, and various (mostly Southern) Chinese arts. The White Crane connection is, in my view, strongly overstated. There are certainly some styles on Okinawa that were directly influenced by White Crane, specifically, but none that I know of that can truly be said to have evolved directly from it. A lot of the supposed White Crane influences actually came from Whooping Crane, if they came from Crane systems at all.
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Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
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Dani_001
Orange Belt
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 137
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Styles: Okinawa Goju-Ryu Karatedo Kyokai
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| Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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White Crane Kung Fu and Karate-do looks very different. To say that it has a main influence is overstated.
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pinklady6000
Yellow Belt
Joined: 04 Jun 2017
Posts: 74
Location: sheffield
Styles: wrestling, shinkicking, jkd
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| Karate is an amalgamation of native Okinawan ti'gwa, Siamese boxing, likely various other Indochinese arts, Japanese jujutsu and weapons arts, and various (mostly Southern) Chinese arts. The White Crane connection is, in my view, strongly overstated. There are certainly some styles on Okinawa that were directly influenced by White Crane, specifically, but none that I know of that can truly be said to have evolved directly from it. A lot of the supposed White Crane influences actually came from Whooping Crane, if they came from Crane systems at all. |
I have just looked at a map of okinawa and japan and they are 1000 of miles apart! how can karate be influenced by okinawa or china? japan is closer to korea and russia. i would say tkd is more likely influence of karate. as for russia i don't know want they do.
pink
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| Karate is an amalgamation of native Okinawan ti'gwa, Siamese boxing, likely various other Indochinese arts, Japanese jujutsu and weapons arts, and various (mostly Southern) Chinese arts. The White Crane connection is, in my view, strongly overstated. There are certainly some styles on Okinawa that were directly influenced by White Crane, specifically, but none that I know of that can truly be said to have evolved directly from it. A lot of the supposed White Crane influences actually came from Whooping Crane, if they came from Crane systems at all. |
I have just looked at a map of okinawa and japan and they are 1000 of miles apart! how can karate be influenced by okinawa or china? japan is closer to korea and russia. i would say tkd is more likely influence of karate. as for russia i don't know want they do.
pink |
Karate originated in Okinawa. Okinawan people often traveled to China by boat, and Chinese people traveled to Okinawa also by boat.
Okinawa was annexed by Japan. Prior to that and after that, Okinawans often traveled back and forth to Japan by boat.
The founders of today's major karate systems - Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, etc. weren't peasants; they were wealthier than peasants but weren't wealthy like royalty. Many had nobility in their family, hence the means to be able to travel. Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju Ryu) spent at least 3 several month long stints in China training in Chinese arts. Most other founders either went to China for long periods of time, were taught by Chinese people spending time in Okinawa, or there teachers learned from Chinese people. And a mix of all that as well. 
As far as TKD, it came from Shotokan karate. It was originally called Korean Karate by a lot of people. It's still referred to as such from time to time, though it has evolved more than enough to be called its own name.
I'm not a karate historian by any means; I'm just repeating what I've read and heard. I'm sure many on here are capable of giving far more in depth explanations. |
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 727
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku
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| Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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There is a pretty good section in this book on the subject which goes into considerable detail, albiet, it is his own educated opinion:
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Karate-Bubishi-Patrick-McCarthy/dp/0804820155
If you get the book, make sure it's the new revised edition.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| Karate is an amalgamation of native Okinawan ti'gwa, Siamese boxing, likely various other Indochinese arts, Japanese jujutsu and weapons arts, and various (mostly Southern) Chinese arts. The White Crane connection is, in my view, strongly overstated. There are certainly some styles on Okinawa that were directly influenced by White Crane, specifically, but none that I know of that can truly be said to have evolved directly from it. A lot of the supposed White Crane influences actually came from Whooping Crane, if they came from Crane systems at all. |
I have just looked at a map of okinawa and japan and they are 1000 of miles apart! how can karate be influenced by okinawa or china? japan is closer to korea and russia. i would say tkd is more likely influence of karate. as for russia i don't know want they do.
pink |
As JR mentioned, Taekwondo came (very directly) from Shotokan karate, so the timeline doesn't fit for it to have influenced the development of karate on Okinawa. It's important to remember that Okinawa's primary function for centuries was a trading nation--their economy was primarily powered by trade with China, Indochina/Southeast Asia, Korea, Japan, etc. After the Satsuma takeover in 1609, it became an especially important trading port for Japan, which instated its isolationist policies at that point, but did not apply them to the islands. Also, do not forget that when most people say "Okinawa," they are actually referring to the entire Ryukyu Island Chain, which stretches from the Southern tip of mainland japan down to Taiwan. That leaves a lot of places to stop your ships along the way, if need be, although only about 30-40 of the islands out of over 100 are habitable. Okinawa was a veritable melting pot of Asian cultures from at least the 1400's to the Meiji Restoration in the late 1800's.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Great posts thus far!!
Knowing the history and the like of the MA can be important. However, knowing ones MA history shouldn't overshadow the training of said MA!!
Train hard...train well!!
I consider myself quite knowledgeable in Shindokan history, and in that, I can speak with the authority concerning anything and everything about Shindokan. However, I'm just super duper happy that it exists, and that's all I give a ding-a-ling about...thanks Soke!!
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on the post.
