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Wayofaswede
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 16 Jan 2017
Posts: 135
Location: Sweden
Styles: Shukokai Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, Aikido (Aikikai), Judo, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea of keeping the Dantian at a horizontal level at all times sounds really interesting, Alan. It should definitely make for a better posture moving through a kata. I'll keep it in mind - and suppose the same idea should be applied to separate stances like shikko etc?
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The path so far: 3 kyu Aikido (Aikikai), 4 kyu Karate (Shukokai Shito-ryu), 5 kyu Judo, 9 kyu Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2405
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayofaswede wrote:
The idea of keeping the Dantian at a horizontal level at all times sounds really interesting, Alan. It should definitely make for a better posture moving through a kata. I'll keep it in mind - and suppose the same idea should be applied to separate stances like shikko etc?


Keeping it level makes things look "clean," but I find it can actually be detrimental to the generation of power for some of your techniques. Our Naihanchi kata do this, because they are focused on rotational power, but the rest of our kata feature some degree of level change. I also practice a version of Naihanchi from KishimotoDi, which very specifically incorporates level change (using shiko-dachi, actually)
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage, Jeff Allred
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
My Blog: www.karateobsession.com
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Wayofaswede wrote:
The idea of keeping the Dantian at a horizontal level at all times sounds really interesting, Alan. It should definitely make for a better posture moving through a kata. I'll keep it in mind - and suppose the same idea should be applied to separate stances like shikko etc?


Keeping it level makes things look "clean," but I find it can actually be detrimental to the generation of power for some of your techniques. Our Naihanchi kata do this, because they are focused on rotational power, but the rest of our kata feature some degree of level change. I also practice a version of Naihanchi from KishimotoDi, which very specifically incorporates level change (using shiko-dachi, actually)
As repeating what I said
(Also in regards to movement habits in the kata, is to practice as if the Dantian is a glass of water (as not to spill anything) as this will make the techniques look and feel balanced and maintain the equilibrium (centre of balance) needed throughout the form)



Nothing I have said is about keeping the dantian horizontal or on one level, as this would be an interpretation only.

"Movinging a glass of water around involves level changes"

Will do some elaborating on my statements regarding this topic very soon but first need to go training.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The glass of water analogy comes from Bagua, as waiters that practice this martial art system, carrying drinks from bar to patron would involve having to manage to avoid spilling the drinks whilst moving very fast around many people, tables, chairs...

None maists are not usually interested in their own dantian.

As the dantian is mysterious, it alludes being something concrete.

Learning and being connected with one's own dantian (Tai Chi Chuan) as a maist is helpful in providing answers to using one's own enegy and replenishing it.

Also having self awarness of the dantian developes ones own balance in motion and for maintaing structure (these for maists are important factors) whilst combating.

The dantian core is connected to the core of Earth, knowing and developing this connection, is to make techniques effective for developing the ability to generate more power and to increase one's own structural integrity (not rigidity) and balance.

For instance the idea (for the most part) of always having at least one foot grounded while in motion makes perfect sense, as it is easy to be swept off one's feet if not.

In the Kata, be aware of in your minds eye.

First attacking the opponent's structure and balance (striking first at the body) whilst maintaining one's own with strategic stepping (using pain responses to capitalise on) is of great significance (as this lowers the opponent's head) and a good start or way towards becoming an effective maist (as follow up techniques) of controlling the head and limbs are available for the finishing touches.

Secondly, (stay united) dividing the opponent in two vertically (this gives a 2 to 1 advantage) by angling or flanking the opponent's blind side (united you stand "divide they fall") by controlling the distance (as in you can strike at will whilst they cannot) and possible lines of attacks making openings for yourself and closing those of the opponent (minimal effort with maximum effect) by using trapping techniques.

Thirdly katas are not to be taken literally, meaning that you are not to serve the kata as it was originally made towards serving you!

"A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man" in other words, your opponent will never know if you changed one manoeuvre for another.

You could be fighting on a boat, forest, street, rope bridge, in water, on rocks, or in a confined space such as in a public convenience, as your combat skills will need to meet the expectations of the environment, therefore becoming more aware of the strengths and limitations of you and your kata(s) is important, therefore if the opportunity arises to practice somewhere different than usual, accept the challenge to learn from the experience.

The need to practice with weapons (karate) "empty hand" this implies the none use of weapons, but training with them is a good way of knowing and understanding of how to fight without the need for them in combat, as learning from weaponry teaches us that the way of duality "full hand" is equally important to be proficient at both.

In other words training with and without weapons will complement your martial betterment in totality, as practing and moving with a weapon can develop equally your skills, when one is not at hand.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayofaswede wrote:
The idea of keeping the Dantian at a horizontal level at all times sounds really interesting, Alan. It should definitely make for a better posture moving through a kata. I'll keep it in mind - and suppose the same idea should be applied to separate stances like shikko etc?


Keeping the dantian horizontal, would be similar to a conveyor belt, or diagonal like an escalator or vertical like an elevator, there is a mechanical efficiency to them all, then a gyroscope would be fitting, however combining the human element of self expression is a very important ingredient including the dantian.
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Wayofaswede
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Joined: 16 Jan 2017
Posts: 135
Location: Sweden
Styles: Shukokai Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, Aikido (Aikikai), Judo, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Wayofaswede wrote:
The idea of keeping the Dantian at a horizontal level at all times sounds really interesting, Alan. It should definitely make for a better posture moving through a kata. I'll keep it in mind - and suppose the same idea should be applied to separate stances like shikko etc?


Keeping it level makes things look "clean," but I find it can actually be detrimental to the generation of power for some of your techniques. Our Naihanchi kata do this, because they are focused on rotational power, but the rest of our kata feature some degree of level change. I also practice a version of Naihanchi from KishimotoDi, which very specifically incorporates level change (using shiko-dachi, actually)


I was referring to the horizontal direction, not level in terms of movement up/down, which obviously will occur in many katas/techniques
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The path so far: 3 kyu Aikido (Aikikai), 4 kyu Karate (Shukokai Shito-ryu), 5 kyu Judo, 9 kyu Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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Wayofaswede
Orange Belt
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Joined: 16 Jan 2017
Posts: 135
Location: Sweden
Styles: Shukokai Shito Ryu, Goju Ryu, Aikido (Aikikai), Judo, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Wayofaswede wrote:
The idea of keeping the Dantian at a horizontal level at all times sounds really interesting, Alan. It should definitely make for a better posture moving through a kata. I'll keep it in mind - and suppose the same idea should be applied to separate stances like shikko etc?


Keeping the dantian horizontal, would be similar to a conveyor belt, or diagonal like an escalator or vertical like an elevator, there is a mechanical efficiency to them all, then a gyroscope would be fitting, however combining the human element of self expression is a very important ingredient including the dantian.


Thanks for elaborating, tanden has indeed become a central concept through my MA years and I usually try to start every technique "from tanden" (somewhat like the "wave motion" in breakdance), at least mentally.

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts about using tanden as starting point and trying to "connect" with the opponent's/partner's tanden?
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The path so far: 3 kyu Aikido (Aikikai), 4 kyu Karate (Shukokai Shito-ryu), 5 kyu Judo, 9 kyu Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayofaswede wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Wayofaswede wrote:
The idea of keeping the Dantian at a horizontal level at all times sounds really interesting, Alan. It should definitely make for a better posture moving through a kata. I'll keep it in mind - and suppose the same idea should be applied to separate stances like shikko etc?


Keeping the dantian horizontal, would be similar to a conveyor belt, or diagonal like an escalator or vertical like an elevator, there is a mechanical efficiency to them all, then a gyroscope would be fitting, however combining the human element of self expression is a very important ingredient including the dantian.


Thanks for elaborating, tanden has indeed become a central concept through my MA years and I usually try to start every technique "from tanden" (somewhat like the "wave motion" in breakdance), at least mentally.

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts about using tanden as starting point and trying to "connect" with the opponent's/partner's tanden?
Yes wayofaswede, I can explain it for you, dantian to dantian, through the fascia, which belongs mainly to the Tai Chi Chuan.

Takes alot of practice with a partner and understanding to do this effectively, not a very important ingredient to main stream martial arts.

For me personally I practice it, as it is useful to stay balanced and neutral.

Time for training, will do some elaborating with videos, very soon for you.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the meantime, here are some experts that are worth looking (on youtube) at that have very insightful opinions, that would be helpful towards answering your question Wayofaswede.

Perhaps asking them all the same question might reveal many profound answers.

Adam Mizner, Liang del Hua, Mark Rasmus. Chen Zhonghua, Damon Mitchell, Arthur Roenfeld, Bruce Frantzis.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2125


PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a good start for you Wayofaswede.

Adam Mizner, Song Kwa:
https://youtu.be/Wor6QB4WKH0

Adam Mizner, Song and Ting:
https://youtu.be/vHNYACQDpGY

Adam Mizner, Hwa and Fa:
https://youtu.be/T02_U9F5Xvw

Adam Mizner, Pluck:
https://youtu.be/ieNSSp42MG0

Adam Mizner, Tsai and Lieh:
https://youtu.be/3ZE6H-1kbZY

Adam Mizner, Revisited part 1
https://youtu.be/XuW4UfaC-l8

Adam Mizner, Revisited part 2
https://youtu.be/M6LtFhDQri8

Hope these links are useful towards answering your question.

Mark Rasmus,
centre of mass centre of balance:
https://youtu.be/N5-hscSTCgk
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