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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 69


PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Kata - blocking and striking question. Reply with quote

We do a lot of odd kata in my club, which tend towards us moving, block and punch rather than a lot of the formal kata I've seen which seem to be more move, block, move punch (which is an over simplification, but for a purpous).
In such a case, with move, block punch, what's your opinion, is it better to include the pull hikite in the block, then punch, or do away with the pull hikite part of the block and just go with block punch?
I'm working on getting my kata really sharp, and to me, the examples I see on you tube seem to only really include the pull hikite when the block is used singularly. Or maybe that's just the way I see it.
Our sensei has now left, but also, had no real interest in the technicalities of kata, and I want to go down the "correct" route.
I bet you're all going to say thete is no correct route, aren't you?
Oh, our kata is routed in Shotokan.
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luv2flyjrn
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 30 Oct 2018
Posts: 10

Styles: Shito kai

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no correct route.

But what shotokan kata is it rooted from. Watch the bunkai from that kata to see how your modified interpretation may be. Depending of the goal and footing of the technique all of what you described would work.
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1253
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Kata - blocking and striking question. Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
We do a lot of odd kata in my club, which tend towards us moving, block and punch rather than a lot of the formal kata I've seen which seem to be more move, block, move punch (which is an over simplification, but for a purpous).
In such a case, with move, block punch, what's your opinion, is it better to include the pull hikite in the block, then punch, or do away with the pull hikite part of the block and just go with block punch?
I'm working on getting my kata really sharp, and to me, the examples I see on you tube seem to only really include the pull hikite when the block is used singularly. Or maybe that's just the way I see it.
Our sensei has now left, but also, had no real interest in the technicalities of kata, and I want to go down the "correct" route.
I bet you're all going to say thete is no correct route, aren't you?
Oh, our kata is routed in Shotokan.


IMHO:
in practicing waza(s) if you' moving outside like 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock then hikite could be incorporated in the block as parrying before front hand comes over. if you jam into 12 o'clock or pulling to 6 o'clock then using hikite for parrying would slow you down and you need to consider the second punch coming.

in doing kata, since kata is abstract so it doesn't matter if you use hikite in blocking or not. Shotokan probably doesn't use it as an active part of blocking.
here you see sensei Yoshimi(Shito ryu) uses hikite in his kata ( he also uses the same concept in his bunkai in contrast to Shotokan which often doesn't)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my0NWoEQyag

I use hikite in all the blocks (in doing kata) no matter what (shorin ryu or Goju ryu) but here you see O'sensei Chibana of Kobayashi Shorin-ryu totally ignores hikite in Kusanku sho but notice the body change from front-stance to cat-stance( so it could be an escape).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ukwqc86Mjo
here you see Rika Usami(shito ryu) uses the hikite throughout the same Kusanku sho.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3CliF1Nd0E
here is sensei Kanazawa doing Kanku sho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMdGiRYHBPk
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 69


PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for those replies guys. I'll look at the videos tonight when I've finished working, and get back to you.
Again, thanks.
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Courser
White Belt
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Joined: 29 Oct 2018
Posts: 1


PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great videos, P.A.L. Were you always using hikite in all the blocks or did you decide that's what you're going to do by experience?
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1253
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courser wrote:
Great videos, P.A.L. Were you always using hikite in all the blocks or did you decide that's what you're going to do by experience?

welcome to the forum, there is an introduction category that you can tell us about yourself ( if you like to, of course ).
about your question.
I learned it from Sensei Ron Lindsey while practicing white crane with him later I added it to my shorin-ryu . in Goju-ryu( Naha-te in general) it is part of the strategy to begin with.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1714

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Consider applications as principles rather than specific individual techniques. In a kata/form moving, blocking and striking may appear to be done separately in application all these parts are integrated. There is no such thing as single sided techniques. In Okinawan karate terminology it is called “meotode”, which means “husband and wife hands”. The idea is that hands are always used together and blocking or parrying and striking are done simultaneously.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14329
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
Consider applications as principles rather than specific individual techniques. In a kata/form moving, blocking and striking may appear to be done separately in application all these parts are integrated. There is no such thing as single sided techniques. In Okinawan karate terminology it is called “meotode”, which means “husband and wife hands”. The idea is that hands are always used together and blocking or parrying and striking are done simultaneously.

To the above bold type...

That is very true, our Soke termed it as "Married hands/techniques", in which, it's much better to kill two birds with one stone. There's no since of wasting movements by waiting for one technique to finish before launching another. This is Shindokan!!




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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2144


PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wing Chun, it is called helping hand, to illustrate the point to students, I ask them to untie their shoe laces and try to tie them up again using one hand; this soon gets the point across towards understanding the benefits of cooperative and coordinated hand movements.

Hikite, pulling hand on the hip represents, for me that it is ready for anything where as for some it can become forgotten and therefore lazy.

Moving off line from the line of fire from the opponent, parring/block and striking is good practice, progressing with a foot sweep, joint lock or throw, finishing with another strike, only adds to the richness of being effective with movements.

Suggest throughout the kata to exaggerate the movements, this will make them look and feel more defined, as well as adding power to all of the techniques.

Also in regards to movement habits in the kata, is to practice as if the Dantian is a glass of water (as not to spill anything) as this will make the techniques look and feel balanced and maintain the equilibrium (centre of balance) needed throughout the form.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2144


PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wing Chun, one hand independent similar to a swiss army knife with multiple uses, without a helping hand.

Also as two hands working independently, as the left side of the brain is working the right hand and the right side of the brain is working the left hand.

Developing this type of coordination can with practice become very effective towards misleading the opponent with "deceptive hands" or what in Wing Chun is also called 3 hands, as this is how it will appear to the opponent.

The point I am trying to make is that be it Wing Chun, Karate, or Silat, there is more to techniques than what is seen, that can be very useful indeed, if one wants to delve deeper in to there uses.

So what might seem like a lot of odd kata, block and punch should be further investigated, as what seems like a block could be like the swiss army knife, with many applications than just one, contained in one hand movement or the intent has changed from a strike to a breaking technique of one kind or another, taken further movements could represent an idea or something seemingly unrelated or abstract.

As a strike might be a pressure point strike and simultaneously be a block or a deflection and part of un-balancing and controlling the opponent.

With this in mind a simple grabbing technique holds more to it that what it appears.

Moving in a kata or not, is for the most part not just moving but positioning oneself to be at an advantage and silmutaniosly putting the opponent at a disadvantage, as moving for the sake of moving, then just as well, one might stay put!

"Empty hand" Martial arts movements are intended towards looking harmless, pretty or something similar to exercises, don't be fooled as to how much self defence potential they contain.

Yes learn the form in days like reading a short story off by heart, then spend decades perfecting and discovering the volumes of information contained within.

Try and imagine that a kata is similar to a machine for a moment, with lots of cogs and gears made of metal, and someone puts their neck tie in to it, well the machines will pull it in, and everything else available till finally coming out on the other side damaged and rearranged.

Yes there is a direct route LastKing:

Called "The road to destruction"

The kata machine doesn't discriminate against being fed a neck tie or a punch/kick or anything else for that matter, as it is intended for crushing, breaking, tearing, pulverising, ripping, squeezing, ramming, dislocating...

Old school vs New school, a reflection of reality.

https://youtu.be/6e5HOyKQB0E
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