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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: kata is free, the human is not! |
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I chose to place this in the karate part of the forum because karate uses applications to their kata more than any style I have ever seen personally. If somebody finds it is deemed more appropriate in the general arena I’m perfectly fine with that. This sure has the ability to spin off into an in-depth conversation amongst intermediate and advanced practitioners, however it is designed more for the beginner who is trying to figure these things out.
All too often I see students trying to figure out what the techniques are. In most cases they are confused as to why they spend hours upon hours practicing these techniques only do not understand them completely and even when I do get talked the applications, often they are confused as to why they look so different then the kata.
In my opinion the form serves many purposes.
#1. The form is a key marker of any style. Think about how you can watch a form and tell right away what style it is, but if you watch self-defense or sparring you may or may not know because it is more difficult to tell.
#2. It is a form of exercise and evening meditation. Practicing forms is excellent for your health in general, it is healthy for your cardiovascular system as well as your skeletal system. Kata is a way to be healthy. Think about the old man who practices forms for many years and when he becomes 90 if he is lucky enough, chances are he does not need to walk with a cane or compared to others his age has stronger hips and so on. He may also have better focus and coordination.
#3. Kata is an excellent way for practitioners to practice on their own. It is a way that the practitioner can practice in a traditional manner meaning being able to practice kicks and punches as well as self-defense techniques on their own without a partner or a heavy bag or a target.
#4. It is a beautiful form of art, the artistic components which are often utilized for competition are undeniable. Practitioners are able to display a beautiful art form for others to see. In this way they do not have to simply throw out a bunch of freestyle techniques. This is an excellent way to pay homage to those that came before you in your system!
The most important thing however of all in my opinion is that kata be viewed as a library for the style. This is a very tricky one because if you wish to practice applications from these katas that are effective then you will have to remove some of the pinpoint robotic movements. Many of the techniques will not look the same as the form and that’s because to use it on a live person is very different than doing it alone. Imagine when you watch a person doing a jab and across as part of their training. In a fight while your opponent is moving you will aim for the target which could be anywhere. Your target assuming it’s the opponents head might be done down or it might be off to the side and you may use a jam or across in a manner that you are not really used to because most people perform their job and their cross street in front of them similarly to how we execute forms, to an imaginary target.
This is exactly why shadowboxing for the boxer is not enough, they must hit a real target, and to take it to another level they must hit a real target that tries to fight back. Kata is no different. We must allow these techniques to be free in order to work on a person. It is in this way that I do not always see kata as practicing the technique per se, but I see kata as a library of movements, an example or concept most often. I see it like a library that a deaf person can be told without words. If you went into the library and read a self-defense book you certainly would not be ready to defend yourself based on this alone and you would need to practice what you learn, this is the concept I try to lay down for any of my students.
So to wrap up this thought. The point I’m trying to make is that unfortunately many times when instructors or even great masters in our time attempt to teach applications to the forms, on many occasions they are bound by the idea that the technique must look similar in order for it to work. This notion comes from the idea that we practice these forms thousands of times and if we do not have direct applications for them then we are practicing for little value. In the end trying to make your application resemble forms too much can seriously downgrade the effectiveness of the applications. Allow them to be free, use the kata as a way to spark the idea in your mind as to how it “can” be used. If you see a red shoe and think of cherry soda, although they have nothing to do with one another rather than the basic color, this is OK because we are thinking freely. The cherry soda does not need to be drunk from a shoe.
I think they have great value because of many of the things I named Bob and we all know there are more benefits to performing kata, but only some movements are going to be practical done exactly like kata, and many will need to be modified a great deal which is why I say I don’t see them as The exact techniques you’re going to use on many occasions because I see them as a reference, or as stated... a library!
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Luther Unleashed,
Excellent explanation of the Kata and applications. I can't say I don't concur with your points.
I do however feel that a bit of clarification is needed. I don't want to speak for you but I assume that you are speaking primarily about what is called now days Practical Applications vs. what I call the Founders Applications.
If the founders applications have been passed down in your art they look like the postures contained within the Kata. This is largely due to the fact that most, not all, come from Quan Fa. If you study the Chinese martial arts manuals you see posture after posture. The applications to these postures look like the posture represented. This is due to the fact that the posture IS the representation of the application itself. Think of it as a snap shot. A single picture meant to define the whole movement. So it must look similar if it is to work as it was originally developed. Of course the height and angle of your body (arms/legs) might change to some degree based on your opponent. As you pointed out real life trumps and if you're fighting a smaller or larger opponent you will need to adapt to this condition. So in this way the resemblance might be skewed but can be recognized.
In terms of practical applications you are trying to break down the movements, analyze them and apply them. You will need to adjust some of the movements in order to make the applications work unless you get lucky and stumble upon the original intent.
All applications whether passed down from the founder or whether created by you or your instructor must meet two rules that are etched in stone. 1. It must be efficient. 2. It must have the potential to end the fight.
In meeting these rules one sometimes must alter the original posture to make the application work. This is due to trial and error of finding what works. This is primarily covered in the three stages - Bunkai = to break down, Bunseki = to analyze and Oyo = to apply. Once you think you understand what the posture represents you must proof it against a non-compliant opponent to see if it actually works. In this exercise more than not you will find that it doesn't work and instead of going back to the drawing board or doing research on the arts that influenced your art to find what it may represent, it is altered in order to make it work. The internet is chock full of these "applications" that do not resemble the Kata's posture.
I believe the main reason that some applications do not resemble the posture found in the Kata is due to trying to make it fit into what the creator deems it should be rather than what it is supposed to be.
Example: it's almost a fade now days to turn every application into a throw, or maintain what is most familiar and make it a strike. If altered enough you can see how to turn any application into what you would like it to be and thus no match to the Kata.
It looks different because in order to make it meet the rules of a viable application it must be altered in order for it to work. If you have been taught the founders applications your mind is opened to the possibilities and can see what the postures might also represent in addition to the founders applications and can maintain the integrity of the posture. If you haven't and you have gotten your source of knowledge from lets say the 1000's of Youtube videos then it is harder to see what the potential is of a posture and it must be altered in order to make it a viable effective application.
I agree with most of your points but for the founders applications your statement is not exactly all together correct.
By the way I love that you compared the Kata to a Library. It's a great analogy of how it contains the art through the applications. Very well put.
I have always used one of my dad's sayings to describe the importance of the Kata and the applications that they contain.
He always said that the person with the most tools in the end wins. He loved tools. However he also said that there is a right tool for every job.
The way I see the Kata and it's applications is tools that I can add to my tool box. We are taught the fundamentals (Kihon) but if that is where we stop our learning we only have so many tools and thus can only do so many jobs. The applications (Individual, sequenced, grouped) add additional tools so that no matter how we are attacked we will have an answer (the right tool for the job).
The limitations of the applications are limitless.
For a small example of this; lets say every Kata contains only 40 postures, 2/3 of them are mirrored so lets say you have 25 postures. Lets also say that you teach 16 Kata.
That's 400 Postures. If we look at the posture in terms of every posture represents a founders application we have 400 applications. This is not the case as we have some Kata like Naihanchi that contain many applications for each posture. But for the sake of making this point we'll say on average there are 1.5 applications for each posture to keep it conservative. That is 600 applications. Now when we couple this with the sequential moves (postures that go together to form an application (we'll say this only represents 4 out of every Kata. This now equals 664 applications. Now if we realize that an application from the Kata can be put together with other applications from the same Kata - lets say this represents a third =8 this equals = 792 applications. Then when we realize that we have more Kata and we can mix an application from one Kata with another, we''ll say this represents 2/3rds (16) that's1,048 applications. Now if we add practical applications and each posture now represents 3 applications minus the founders applications - this equals 1,200 applications plus the above final founders total = 2,248 applications.
If you run this through with the sequential and grouped examples above you get the picture. This is very conservative but serves to make my point. Kihon or basics only give you so many techniques that you then have to have an analytical mind to put into combinations and scenarios and you still don't come close to having enough tools. When you study the Kata and it's applications you add a limitless amount of tools.
To me the Kata and it's applications are the total representation of the art.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Luther Unleashed,
Excellent explanation of the Kata and applications. I can't say I don't concur with your points.
I do however feel that a bit of clarification is needed. I don't want to speak for you but I assume that you are speaking primarily about what is called now days Practical Applications vs. what I call the Founders Applications.
If the founders applications have been passed down in your art they look like the postures contained within the Kata. This is largely due to the fact that most, not all, come from Quan Fa. If you study the Chinese martial arts manuals you see posture after posture. The applications to these postures look like the posture represented. This is due to the fact that the posture IS the representation of the application itself. Think of it as a snap shot. A single picture meant to define the whole movement. So it must look similar if it is to work as it was originally developed. Of course the height and angle of your body (arms/legs) might change to some degree based on your opponent. As you pointed out real life trumps and if you're fighting a smaller or larger opponent you will need to adapt to this condition. So in this way the resemblance might be skewed but can be recognized.
In terms of practical applications you are trying to break down the movements, analyze them and apply them. You will need to adjust some of the movements in order to make the applications work unless you get lucky and stumble upon the original intent.
All applications whether passed down from the founder or whether created by you or your instructor must meet two rules that are etched in stone. 1. It must be efficient. 2. It must have the potential to end the fight.
In meeting these rules one sometimes must alter the original posture to make the application work. This is due to trial and error of finding what works. This is primarily covered in the three stages - Bunkai = to break down, Bunseki = to analyze and Oyo = to apply. Once you think you understand what the posture represents you must proof it against a non-compliant opponent to see if it actually works. In this exercise more than not you will find that it doesn't work and instead of going back to the drawing board or doing research on the arts that influenced your art to find what it may represent, it is altered in order to make it work. The internet is chock full of these "applications" that do not resemble the Kata's posture.
I believe the main reason that some applications do not resemble the posture found in the Kata is due to trying to make it fit into what the creator deems it should be rather than what it is supposed to be.
Example: it's almost a fade now days to turn every application into a throw, or maintain what is most familiar and make it a strike. If altered enough you can see how to turn any application into what you would like it to be and thus no match to the Kata.
It looks different because in order to make it meet the rules of a viable application it must be altered in order for it to work. If you have been taught the founders applications your mind is opened to the possibilities and can see what the postures might also represent in addition to the founders applications and can maintain the integrity of the posture. If you haven't and you have gotten your source of knowledge from lets say the 1000's of Youtube videos then it is harder to see what the potential is of a posture and it must be altered in order to make it a viable effective application.
I agree with most of your points but for the founders applications your statement is not exactly all together correct.
By the way I love that you compared the Kata to a Library. It's a great analogy of how it contains the art through the applications. Very well put.
I have always used one of my dad's sayings to describe the importance of the Kata and the applications that they contain.
He always said that the person with the most tools in the end wins. He loved tools. However he also said that there is a right tool for every job.
The way I see the Kata and it's applications is tools that I can add to my tool box. We are taught the fundamentals (Kihon) but if that is where we stop our learning we only have so many tools and thus can only do so many jobs. The applications (Individual, sequenced, grouped) add additional tools so that no matter how we are attacked we will have an answer (the right tool for the job).
The limitations of the applications are limitless.
For a small example of this; lets say every Kata contains only 40 postures, 2/3 of them are mirrored so lets say you have 25 postures. Lets also say that you teach 16 Kata.
That's 400 Postures. If we look at the posture in terms of every posture represents a founders application we have 400 applications. This is not the case as we have some Kata like Naihanchi that contain many applications for each posture. But for the sake of making this point we'll say on average there are 1.5 applications for each posture to keep it conservative. That is 600 applications. Now when we couple this with the sequential moves (postures that go together to form an application (we'll say this only represents 4 out of every Kata. This now equals 664 applications. Now if we realize that an application from the Kata can be put together with other applications from the same Kata - lets say this represents a third =8 this equals = 792 applications. Then when we realize that we have more Kata and we can mix an application from one Kata with another, we''ll say this represents 2/3rds (16) that's1,048 applications. Now if we add practical applications and each posture now represents 3 applications minus the founders applications - this equals 1,200 applications plus the above final founders total = 2,248 applications.
If you run this through with the sequential and grouped examples above you get the picture. This is very conservative but serves to make my point. Kihon or basics only give you so many techniques that you then have to have an analytical mind to put into combinations and scenarios and you still don't come close to having enough tools. When you study the Kata and it's applications you add a limitless amount of tools.
To me the Kata and it's applications are the total representation of the art. |
Great feedback and input my friend. I have to say I don’t know that any applications o do are what “the founders” had in mind. For the most part I was always taught that we do t exactly know what was on their mind. To go even further with that, over time things change a great deal even if it’s a little at a time.
A small example. Not to be negative about a former instructor I taught next to BUT he used to teach things all the time that were from his previous style in kata. Meaning when it came to using a knife and block or something of that nature he would teach the chamber and hand movements with similar angles to his previous style and not accurate to our style. Are used to ponder what his students will look like compared to mine as I carry-on the more accurate tradition of our style. If we each thought 1000 students in our lifetime they would essentially become a different version of the style like you see in many situations today. Because the techniques are used differently in the students he teaches the application will change whether it be slightly or more than that because the movement is not the same so the angle is not the same and therefore the leverage or way the force is applied changes.
I study primarily Tang Soo Do, in fact although I study if you different styles when it comes to teaching really only teach Tamg Soo Do forms as it’s always been the foundation of what I teach. As for the forms original meanings as I said I’m afraid it’s pretty common to see bunkai, and only presumptions about what the founders intended. So, on that level I cannot speak about. I have never met a teacher that said “this is what the founder applications are”! It’s always been “this is my interpretation”!
Interesting points here for sure. As for the library reference, I also study kung fu and in kung fu the forms are even more important in my opinion. They often rely on the forms for their techniques even more. There were no one steps and things of that nature, only applications from the form and I once heard a very wise instructor refer to forms as a library of the style So I can’t take credit for the reference I’m afraid! It made a great deal of sense to me and i have used it ever since.
Thanks for the great input here.
_________________
Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Luther unleashed wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Luther Unleashed,
Excellent explanation of the Kata and applications. I can't say I don't concur with your points.
I do however feel that a bit of clarification is needed. I don't want to speak for you but I assume that you are speaking primarily about what is called now days Practical Applications vs. what I call the Founders Applications.
If the founders applications have been passed down in your art they look like the postures contained within the Kata. This is largely due to the fact that most, not all, come from Quan Fa. If you study the Chinese martial arts manuals you see posture after posture. The applications to these postures look like the posture represented. This is due to the fact that the posture IS the representation of the application itself. Think of it as a snap shot. A single picture meant to define the whole movement. So it must look similar if it is to work as it was originally developed. Of course the height and angle of your body (arms/legs) might change to some degree based on your opponent. As you pointed out real life trumps and if you're fighting a smaller or larger opponent you will need to adapt to this condition. So in this way the resemblance might be skewed but can be recognized.
In terms of practical applications you are trying to break down the movements, analyze them and apply them. You will need to adjust some of the movements in order to make the applications work unless you get lucky and stumble upon the original intent.
All applications whether passed down from the founder or whether created by you or your instructor must meet two rules that are etched in stone. 1. It must be efficient. 2. It must have the potential to end the fight.
In meeting these rules one sometimes must alter the original posture to make the application work. This is due to trial and error of finding what works. This is primarily covered in the three stages - Bunkai = to break down, Bunseki = to analyze and Oyo = to apply. Once you think you understand what the posture represents you must proof it against a non-compliant opponent to see if it actually works. In this exercise more than not you will find that it doesn't work and instead of going back to the drawing board or doing research on the arts that influenced your art to find what it may represent, it is altered in order to make it work. The internet is chock full of these "applications" that do not resemble the Kata's posture.
I believe the main reason that some applications do not resemble the posture found in the Kata is due to trying to make it fit into what the creator deems it should be rather than what it is supposed to be.
Example: it's almost a fade now days to turn every application into a throw, or maintain what is most familiar and make it a strike. If altered enough you can see how to turn any application into what you would like it to be and thus no match to the Kata.
It looks different because in order to make it meet the rules of a viable application it must be altered in order for it to work. If you have been taught the founders applications your mind is opened to the possibilities and can see what the postures might also represent in addition to the founders applications and can maintain the integrity of the posture. If you haven't and you have gotten your source of knowledge from lets say the 1000's of Youtube videos then it is harder to see what the potential is of a posture and it must be altered in order to make it a viable effective application.
I agree with most of your points but for the founders applications your statement is not exactly all together correct.
By the way I love that you compared the Kata to a Library. It's a great analogy of how it contains the art through the applications. Very well put.
I have always used one of my dad's sayings to describe the importance of the Kata and the applications that they contain.
He always said that the person with the most tools in the end wins. He loved tools. However he also said that there is a right tool for every job.
The way I see the Kata and it's applications is tools that I can add to my tool box. We are taught the fundamentals (Kihon) but if that is where we stop our learning we only have so many tools and thus can only do so many jobs. The applications (Individual, sequenced, grouped) add additional tools so that no matter how we are attacked we will have an answer (the right tool for the job).
The limitations of the applications are limitless.
For a small example of this; lets say every Kata contains only 40 postures, 2/3 of them are mirrored so lets say you have 25 postures. Lets also say that you teach 16 Kata.
That's 400 Postures. If we look at the posture in terms of every posture represents a founders application we have 400 applications. This is not the case as we have some Kata like Naihanchi that contain many applications for each posture. But for the sake of making this point we'll say on average there are 1.5 applications for each posture to keep it conservative. That is 600 applications. Now when we couple this with the sequential moves (postures that go together to form an application (we'll say this only represents 4 out of every Kata. This now equals 664 applications. Now if we realize that an application from the Kata can be put together with other applications from the same Kata - lets say this represents a third =8 this equals = 792 applications. Then when we realize that we have more Kata and we can mix an application from one Kata with another, we''ll say this represents 2/3rds (16) that's1,048 applications. Now if we add practical applications and each posture now represents 3 applications minus the founders applications - this equals 1,200 applications plus the above final founders total = 2,248 applications.
If you run this through with the sequential and grouped examples above you get the picture. This is very conservative but serves to make my point. Kihon or basics only give you so many techniques that you then have to have an analytical mind to put into combinations and scenarios and you still don't come close to having enough tools. When you study the Kata and it's applications you add a limitless amount of tools.
To me the Kata and it's applications are the total representation of the art. |
Great feedback and input my friend. I have to say I don’t know that any applications o do are what “the founders” had in mind. For the most part I was always taught that we do t exactly know what was on their mind. To go even further with that, over time things change a great deal even if it’s a little at a time.
A small example. Not to be negative about a former instructor I taught next to BUT he used to teach things all the time that were from his previous style in kata. Meaning when it came to using a knife and block or something of that nature he would teach the chamber and hand movements with similar angles to his previous style and not accurate to our style. Are used to ponder what his students will look like compared to mine as I carry-on the more accurate tradition of our style. If we each thought 1000 students in our lifetime they would essentially become a different version of the style like you see in many situations today. Because the techniques are used differently in the students he teaches the application will change whether it be slightly or more than that because the movement is not the same so the angle is not the same and therefore the leverage or way the force is applied changes.
I study primarily Tang Soo Do, in fact although I study if you different styles when it comes to teaching really only teach Tamg Soo Do forms as it’s always been the foundation of what I teach. As for the forms original meanings as I said I’m afraid it’s pretty common to see bunkai, and only presumptions about what the founders intended. So, on that level I cannot speak about. I have never met a teacher that said “this is what the founder applications are”! It’s always been “this is my interpretation”!
Interesting points here for sure. As for the library reference, I also study kung fu and in kung fu the forms are even more important in my opinion. They often rely on the forms for their techniques even more. There were no one steps and things of that nature, only applications from the form and I once heard a very wise instructor refer to forms as a library of the style So I can’t take credit for the reference I’m afraid! It made a great deal of sense to me and i have used it ever since.
Thanks for the great input here. |
Well to be perfectly honest, this is what my Shinshii and his Shinshii told us came from the founder. In researching the postures with in each Kata by way of the original arts that influenced the founder, I can say around 90% of what I have been told were the founders applications are a direct match. Around 8% appeared to have been altered. (Not a bad thing as it had been simplified and IMHO improved) The last 2% I believe someone within the lineage after the founder had either made these up due to not remembering or not been taught these applications. They had no similarities to what I found as the original intent. Now this only accounts for around 90% or so of the postures in the Kata. Some I have yet to proof against any known example of Quan Fa applications.
I have an extensive library of around 2200 manuals and books. There are still around 10% of our postures that I can not match to any Quan Fa posture/application. My guess is these are specifically Ti'gwa applications/techniques. Although I have read every book I could get my hand on about this subject, examples are few are far between and were not documented so all we have is stipulation and guess work. Due to this I have no choice but to rely on what my Shinshii has passed down as the application of that posture.
I doubt if anyone truly understands or knows the original meaning of every posture. However by researching the arts that influenced your art and referencing their applications you can at least verify whether it matches up with what you are being taught.
One good reference to the postures is the Bubishi. They give at least an indication of the original intent of the postures and it's a great starting place.
I do agree with you that each instructor makes slight changes. I believe this has a lot to do with the human body. If an instructor is weaker/stronger, shorter/taller, faster/slower, etc. than his/her teacher then they will slightly alter the application to fit them and what works for them. I think this is a natural thing and if done because of these reasons it cancels it's self out and is negligible because at some point it will be taught again like the original teacher taught it due to these same circumstances.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Great responses, everyone!!
| Quote: |
| kata is free, the human is not! |
It's the title of this topic; an interesting choice of words!!
I took offense to the wording because those of us in Shindokan are taught that both Kata and the human are BOTH FREE!!
Both are free to express across the board; unlimited expressions. Both are free to research. Both are free to agree and/or disagree. Both are free within and without any Kata...any technique...anytime and anyway and anywhere. Nothing is set in stone, and for it to be so, limits us.
Kata and human are equally free in and out of Oyo, and not because Oyo is a funny principle, but Oyo bring life into the deep research of effectiveness as well as in the totality of said encounter.
Alas, that's the beauty of Oyo...find...discard...find...discard...find...discard...and so on and so forth, but this is why I say that both Kata and Human are free to explore that which hasn't been discovered as of yet.
Ok...back to my corner with a sock stuffed into my mouth taped shut!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Great responses, everyone!!
| Quote: |
| kata is free, the human is not! |
It's the title of this topic; an interesting choice of words!!
I took offense to the wording because those of us in Shindokan are taught that both Kata and the human are BOTH FREE!!
Both are free to express across the board; unlimited expressions. Both are free to research. Both are free to agree and/or disagree. Both are free within and without any Kata...any technique...anytime and anyway and anywhere. Nothing is set in stone, and for it to be so, limits us.
Kata and human are equally free in and out of Oyo, and not because Oyo is a funny principle, but Oyo bring life into the deep research of effectiveness as well as in the totality of said encounter.
Alas, that's the beauty of Oyo...find...discard...find...discard...find...discard...and so on and so forth, but this is why I say that both Kata and Human are free to explore that which hasn't been discovered as of yet.
Ok...back to my corner with a sock stuffed into my mouth taped shut!!
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While it’s not my intention to offend you, I’m not surprised, only because I seem to have a different mental approach to traditional arts then many do.
People are free, but many are not free thinkers, especially in martial arts. Forms are a conduit for restriction and robotic thinking. Because we emulate so closely to those before us, it’s hard to say we are free to express through forms, with the exception of applications. I fear that many try to hard to make their applications look like the kata, rather then use the kata as a representation of a technique. In this way I believe kata is very restrictive, because people make it that way, or we may choose to make them free, by opening them up and allowing them to grow, and to spark more technique.
We are free sensei8, but I’m afraid many traditional martial artists limit themselves with their thinking. Not all of course, just many IMHO.
I respect our input here. These are just thoughts that cross my mind, and I enjoy sharing!
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Luther unleashed wrote: |
While it’s not my intention to offend you, I’m not surprised, only because I seem to have a different mental approach to traditional arts then many do.
People are free, but many are not free thinkers, especially in martial arts. Forms are a conduit for restriction and robotic thinking. Because we emulate so closely to those before us, it’s hard to say we are free to express through forms, with the exception of applications. I fear that many try to hard to make their applications look like the kata, rather then use the kata as a representation of a technique. In this way I believe kata is very restrictive, because people make it that way, or we may choose to make them free, by opening them up and allowing them to grow, and to spark more technique.
We are free sensei8, but I’m afraid many traditional martial artists limit themselves with their thinking. Not all of course, just many IMHO.
I respect our input here. These are just thoughts that cross my mind, and I enjoy sharing! |
To the bold - I see where you are coming from and I can not deny that you have a valid point. Students emulate their teachers in the beginning. This is true. However as we develop we also start to explore and develop our own way. This is natural.
To say that it is robotic... well maybe in the beginning but this apart of the natural learning cycle. Yes students copy their teachers but they also grow with time and develop their own way. This has to be the way since we all have different skill sets, body types, abilities. You can not be a carbon copy of your teacher no matter how much you try to be. It's just not possible and further it would hinder your personal growth.
As far as following the Kata itself is concerned - this IMHO is a pit fall. The Kata is a vessel that contains the techniques/applications. To follow the Kata literally without question is folly IMHO. The postures (each individual step, move, stance, whatever you prefer to call them) contained within the Kata are what is representative of the application contained.
Yes you can have a sequence or series of postures that represent the application as well but if you follow the Kata only you miss many possibilities. One posture(application) from the beginning (pick a point in the Kata) can be utilized with another posture (application) in the end of a Kata or can be used with a posture (application) from another Kata altogether.
If you study the chinese combat/martial arts manuals you will see these postures as representations of the applications/techniques. They are individual snap shots that have been put into a specified order (Kata) as a means of keeping and passing down this knowledge to your students. The kata is a container that holds the knowledge. The Kata is also a means of training the body to move in an efficient manner and to teach proper body mechanics to achieve maximum power in a technique.
I do not disagree with your points. I only point out that to take the Kata literally (although you can as another means of learning) without seeing the whole picture is folly. One should explore all possibilities. This is the reason why you can literally study one or a few Kata for a life time. It is also the reason that many of the original founders may have only passed down a few Kata or only knew a few Kata themselves. It's because the possibilities are limitless and there is no Mastering the art. If explored and studied fully the student will remain a student for a life time. Especially considering that there are on average 14 to 20 Kata studied in an art. In some cases many more.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| Luther unleashed wrote: |
While it’s not my intention to offend you, I’m not surprised, only because I seem to have a different mental approach to traditional arts then many do.
People are free, but many are not free thinkers, especially in martial arts. Forms are a conduit for restriction and robotic thinking. Because we emulate so closely to those before us, it’s hard to say we are free to express through forms, with the exception of applications. I fear that many try to hard to make their applications look like the kata, rather then use the kata as a representation of a technique. In this way I believe kata is very restrictive, because people make it that way, or we may choose to make them free, by opening them up and allowing them to grow, and to spark more technique.
We are free sensei8, but I’m afraid many traditional martial artists limit themselves with their thinking. Not all of course, just many IMHO.
I respect our input here. These are just thoughts that cross my mind, and I enjoy sharing! |
To the bold - I see where you are coming from and I can not deny that you have a valid point. Students emulate their teachers in the beginning. This is true. However as we develop we also start to explore and develop our own way. This is natural.
To say that it is robotic... well maybe in the beginning but this apart of the natural learning cycle. Yes students copy their teachers but they also grow with time and develop their own way. This has to be the way since we all have different skill sets, body types, abilities. You can not be a carbon copy of your teacher no matter how much you try to be. It's just not possible and further it would hinder your personal growth.
As far as following the Kata itself is concerned - this IMHO is a pit fall. The Kata is a vessel that contains the techniques/applications. To follow the Kata literally without question is folly IMHO. The postures (each individual step, move, stance, whatever you prefer to call them) contained within the Kata are what is representative of the application contained.
Yes you can have a sequence or series of postures that represent the application as well but if you follow the Kata only you miss many possibilities. One posture(application) from the beginning (pick a point in the Kata) can be utilized with another posture (application) in the end of a Kata or can be used with a posture (application) from another Kata altogether.
If you study the chinese combat/martial arts manuals you will see these postures as representations of the applications/techniques. They are individual snap shots that have been put into a specified order (Kata) as a means of keeping and passing down this knowledge to your students. The kata is a container that holds the knowledge. The Kata is also a means of training the body to move in an efficient manner and to teach proper body mechanics to achieve maximum power in a technique.
I do not disagree with your points. I only point out that to take the Kata literally (although you can as another means of learning) without seeing the whole picture is folly. One should explore all possibilities. This is the reason why you can literally study one or a few Kata for a life time. It is also the reason that many of the original founders may have only passed down a few Kata or only knew a few Kata themselves. It's because the possibilities are limitless and there is no Mastering the art. If explored and studied fully the student will remain a student for a life time. Especially considering that there are on average 14 to 20 Kata studied in an art. In some cases many more. |
Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.
There are 14 total Kata in my current system and I’m glad there isn’t more, because it takes years for me to perform the movements in crisp form, where it feels natural and comes quickly with power. I learned in beginning to teach how much my Kata could gain in skill. I have taught the first basic form so many times because I have taught so many beginners, that I realized how much growth can happen even on a basic level. It was in my 3rd year of doing basic form number one that I learned a new and excellent application to it. As you say the learning process is limitless!
Just to reiterate, I firmly believe that the forms/kata, in many cases, are not a display of the actual technique as I feel they sometimes only represent the technique. A good example of this would be in Naihanchi. An application I learned for the purpose of kicking your own knee was really just “representing” kicking your opponents knee. If we try to hard to make the technique the same it will make it less effective because obviously kicking your own knee and kicking your opponents will require completely different mechanics therefore practicing the kata 5000 times will not help you kick your opponents knee as if it was second nature. To will need to practice the represented technique in order for that to happen.
Basically We are saying the same thing.
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes sir, I believe we are.
Great points.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
