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AnonymousOne
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Joined: 27 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funakoshi changed the names of the Kata and he stated in his writings he fully expected them to change again.

Do you feel the names of the Kata reflect the techniques and meanings of the techniques learnt within them?

Is there a need to carry on with old and ambiguous names of Kata?

For example Jiin means Temple. What Temple and what is the significance of it? and the same goes for the Kata Jion.


Kanku Dai refers to looking to the Sky, what is the purpose of this?

The Kata Enpi means swallow, this is an obvious meaning when one studies the Kata, but many are not so obvious. Are we missing something or just sticking to tradition for traditions sake?


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ronryu
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Joined: 29 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well interesteing question . since I am not a shotokan student i do not know why Funakoshi changed the names I do know that most fo the okinawan names were either numbers or named after the person who broght over or created the kata . For example empi in shotokan is wanshu in the okinawan styles . The same is for kanku which is kushanku ( japanese pronounced it kosokun )
However i could see where it would make sence to name the kata after the movements such as gankaku . I guess this is one of those questions that people will be answering for the next 100 years. Sorry i couldent help .


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Chinte
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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AnonymousOne
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-02-16 17:37, Chinte wrote:



Thats an intelligent deduction

I worked on the Kata Chinte about 20 years ago. Nice Kata

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Karateka
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2002 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think kata names reflect what the original person thought they were doing and what they were fighting. It is a sign of respect to keep them the way they are.

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AnonymousOne
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-02-17 01:21, Karateka wrote:
I think kata names reflect what the original person thought they were doing and what they were fighting. It is a sign of respect to keep them the way they are.


Does that mean you feel Funakoshi was not respectful when he changed them?

The Kata have changed again and again. Funakoshi said the Kata he taught was vastly different to the Kata he learnt we he was a boy because of the changes made. We also know that great Masters from Sakugawa, Matsumura, Gusukuma, Azato, Itosu, Higaonna and many others changed and adapted the Kata. The Kata has evolved and evolved again. The original forms are really not known. We dont even know, and Karate Masters today also admit this, that the Kata have changed so much that the original intent of the creator's of Kata may well have been lost. Not in all cases but in many cases.

So what we practise today is a far cry from what it was. Whether this is good or bad one can only speculate. That being the case, today we practise and evolved form and I ask does the names really reflect the original intention?

Also the salutation at the beginning of many Kata, the meanings of these have been totally lost. No ones knows what these mean, if anything. They are done purely out of tradition. Maybe they had some meaning in the past but today we know the meanings have not been past down. This is written about by many Japanese and Okinawan Masters.

When I was in Japan for a year (in 1982) I often was able to discuss these issues with Kancho Sensei Sasaki 10th Dan and often I didnt get answers but possible speculations and they were not able to give firm answers because no body knows.

Heres a little info:

http://www.americanblackbeltacademy.com/ref-room/kataformsofkarate.htm

[ This Message was edited by: AnonymousOne on 2002-02-18 01:13 ]
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username237
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think they do reflect the moves in the the kata eg: my FAVE kata gankaku in name after a crane (the bird)on a rock and the kata contains that move where you balance on 1 leg (soz i dont know the name of the move!)

I dont think its ironic
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smegedinashed
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Joined: 17 Feb 2002
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Location: Wombwell Katate Club

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the katas should keep the original names. Shotokan is starting to follow tawkandos lead of fogeting th origins of the marsal art. Shotokan is the best marshal art of the lot by sticking to its roots, they keeped the katas from the old times and never fogot them and should stay that way.

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Tobias_Reece
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Joined: 26 May 2001
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Styles: Matayoshi Okinawawn Kobudo, Shotokan Karate

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The name of the move is Manji-uke in Gankaku-dachi.

Some people call Gankaku-dachi Tsura-ashi-dachi, but some people say they are two seperate stances

That particular combination is also known as Gankaku-gamae.

Hope this helps.....and its not juts me being a bighead!!! LOL

Tobias

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KickChick
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Joined: 02 Aug 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Ah... youre referring to "Modern" Tae kwon do ...Like everything else in the world, Martial arts/Karate changes (not just TKD), and it is still changing and will never stop changing. These changes occur for a variety of reasons:

Improvement of techniques
Mixing with other styles
Misinterpretation of techniques
Instruction by under-trained instructors
Techniques deleted due to ineffectiveness.

Just a note: The ITF still uses the original forms thatwere developed by General Choi.
Change is inevitable in some MA styles that start to break away from tradition but it is up to instructors to ensure that the changes remain true to the martial art while still
reflecting the time we live in.

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