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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1920
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was unclear, I think. We do practice some Kihon moving backwards. Our non-kata drills are almost exclusively defensive in this way. We also have a number of kata bunkai that has us moving backwards.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1920
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
But you probably mean when someone is 'lower' than you are ? Or they are 'on their way down ' and you sorta 'help them along ' . We have plenty of that , then after that, they are 'downed' .


Yes, we were meaning two different things here so the wires got a little crossed. I was meaning someone on the ground but not knocked-out.

Quote:
And as I said , we dont use shuto as a type of 'chop' or a 'block' ; its a short circular movement, in front, with both hands to 'get around' the others attacking arm and strike over the top of that arm to any weak point above their shoulder.


That's a fair point. We tend to use it in a few different ways.

Quote:
And the Chinto I do ends nothing like you described , although there are two other occasions when you punch from a one knee kneeling position in the form of Gojoshiho that we do , but they are not directed downwards . There is a reason why they are done one one knee though , but it isnt to hit someone on the ground .


Not surprising. MSSR Chinto is much different from the Chinto that Shobayashi does and I've seen at least 2 other ways since.

Quote:
I feel we are back in the place where many moves in kata may have lost their meaning during the transition from old traditional style to modern 'school style' just as the applications for basics did .


Very possible, and that is the difficulty with talking about kata in a text based format. There's also the issue of the game of telephone that is learning karate, and the way that some people will morph a kata to make sense for their bodies. We run into this problem at my school. The founder was a very short man, and as such some of the techniques were very likely changed to make sense for him. In the change came a change in bunkai and the like and this is what he passed on. Now were at the place in the dojo of trying to translate those techniques back into something that makes sense as a lot of us are significantly taller than he was. Part of the fun of karate for sure, but definitely frustrating.
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aurik
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 269
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things we also learn is that there are MANY interpretations to a kata. When we start out with our first rank kata, we learn one interpretation for the moves in that kata. As we progress to more advanced ranks, different bunkai, and different kata and yakusoku kumite (which are in turn based on kata), we encounter different interpretations for the moves in a kata.

For example we have (nearly) the same sequence of moves in multiple different rank kata -- step forward into a shiko-dachi, perform a left circular block, followed by a right elbow strike to the sternum/solar plexus region, followed by a backfist strike to the upper mandible.

In the Kanshiwa bunkai, that move is interpreted as a defense against a knife attack and is performed exactly as in the kata. In our Kanshu bunkai, that is interpreted as a defense against a sword (or baseball bat) attack.

Things get more interesting when we perform that sequence in yakusoku kumite -- there are implicit throws/takedowns in there. One possible takedown involves the elbow strike/backfist, then stepping forward to perform a o-soto-gari (outer leg sweep). The next throw option involves either a shoulder throw or hip throw, since the defender is in the perfect position for either of those.

Our CI tends to present material 3 to 4 month cycles. Most of the time we focus on the specific material for our next rank, but he will season the required material with additional material to include things like throws, joint locks, self-defense techniques, and chokes. In each case, he'll show a sequence of the kata where this is derived from.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29324
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
So, when you train for these 'defensive tactics ' and you "get into a good defensive stance and perhaps blocking then " do you use 'blocks' and counters or something like what I described ?


Each situation is different. If someone is actively trying to strike me, I probably block and counter, and my goal is to eventually work to detain them. I don't want to have a "fair fight" with anyone, so in the process, the goal is to move to either of the flanks or to the back, so I can have more weapons and targets available than they can.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
Maybe I’m just arrogant, but imho these sort of interpretations of kata are the wrong ways to be interpreted.

Foot work and stances should not be directly correlated to hands/arms in a ‘feet do X, while hands do Y.’ Manner.

It’s a much too rigid structure. Foot work teaches movement, hands teach techniques. It’s up to us each practice techniques with different footwork and stances, and we must understand that stances in most situations are only engaged very briefly and transitionary, and should not be thought of as something that needs to be held for a prolonged time period to count as ‘doing a stance’


I agree with the bold, very much. It seems to me over the course of time, especially in the practice of the more "traditional" styles, stance work is too involved in holding static positions, and worry about the "aesthetics" of the movements. Stepping into a stance ends up being seen as a "stopping point," when it's more likely a point of power transition or movement into a recovery position.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 136


PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
Maybe I’m just arrogant, but imho these sort of interpretations of kata are the wrong ways to be interpreted.

Foot work and stances should not be directly correlated to hands/arms in a ‘feet do X, while hands do Y.’ Manner.

It’s a much too rigid structure. Foot work teaches movement, hands teach techniques. It’s up to us each practice techniques with different footwork and stances, and we must understand that stances in most situations are only engaged very briefly and transitionary, and should not be thought of as something that needs to be held for a prolonged time period to count as ‘doing a stance’


I agree with the bold, very much. It seems to me over the course of time, especially in the practice of the more "traditional" styles, stance work is too involved in holding static positions, and worry about the "aesthetics" of the movements. Stepping into a stance ends up being seen as a "stopping point," when it's more likely a point of power transition or movement into a recovery position.

Yep
Never heard a kyokushin karateka criticizing anyone based on their stances.
Maybe more karateka should participate in full contact sport at least a little bit before teaching.
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Miick 11
Orange Belt
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 122


PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Miick 11 wrote:
But you probably mean when someone is 'lower' than you are ? Or they are 'on their way down ' and you sorta 'help them along ' . We have plenty of that , then after that, they are 'downed' .


Yes, we were meaning two different things here so the wires got a little crossed. I was meaning someone on the ground but not knocked-out.

Quote:
And as I said , we dont use shuto as a type of 'chop' or a 'block' ; its a short circular movement, in front, with both hands to 'get around' the others attacking arm and strike over the top of that arm to any weak point above their shoulder.


That's a fair point. We tend to use it in a few different ways.

Quote:
And the Chinto I do ends nothing like you described , although there are two other occasions when you punch from a one knee kneeling position in the form of Gojoshiho that we do , but they are not directed downwards . There is a reason why they are done one one knee though , but it isnt to hit someone on the ground .


Not surprising. MSSR Chinto is much different from the Chinto that Shobayashi does and I've seen at least 2 other ways since.

Quote:
I feel we are back in the place where many moves in kata may have lost their meaning during the transition from old traditional style to modern 'school style' just as the applications for basics did .


Very possible, and that is the difficulty with talking about kata in a text based format. There's also the issue of the game of telephone that is learning karate, and the way that some people will morph a kata to make sense for their bodies. We run into this problem at my school. The founder was a very short man, and as such some of the techniques were very likely changed to make sense for him. In the change came a change in bunkai and the like and this is what he passed on. Now were at the place in the dojo of trying to translate those techniques back into something that makes sense as a lot of us are significantly taller than he was. Part of the fun of karate for sure, but definitely frustrating.


Yes, its a difficult discussion without the visuals . The size thing is significant with us ; Mr N was short , but Ted ( Soken's student that bought the style to Australia ) was very tall .

Still , there was significant OTHER differences . I see them as 'base style ' and 'family style' . Both seemed acceptable to Mr N.


Last edited by Miick 11 on Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So our official instructor has been away for about a month and I have been taking class .

" You guys up for something different ? " - I got swamped ! They where very much up for that as pretty bored with endless repetition of things that have not changed that much in years ( except where I have manged to sneak stuff in )

" We need to get out of 'bunkai kindergarten' . .... YOU ! pick a kata " - he does . " You. pick a move from it and a bunkai ... and you, another , and you another . Right, practice them . "

" Okay , you have faced off , bowed , got into ready position , one attacked , one defended/countered . NOW do it as you would start a spar ... the attacker move around a bit and feint a bit then attack . " They did that for a while .

" Now, do the same but add this ; the attacker, try to stop their bunkai / counter . "

Then after that ; groups of three ; two 'spar' ( say 'spar' but there are no rules or restrictions , except try to NOT injure your partner ) one observes ; " Use any of the four techniques and their bunkais ... of course all other sorts of things will happen but concentrate on looking, within all that , for an opportunity to apply one of those techniques . The third person is like a referee , observing and calling when he sees one of those techniques applied successfully .

It started as a slow motion movement , after a bt we speeded up . A very enlightening exercise ! Some bunkais and moves where hopeless and easliy countered . Others where not . And the ones used in static bunkai practice ( ie against classic oi-tsuki, straight punch, that is left 'hanging out there ' ) where useless, as no one was punching like that in a 'spar' .

... except for me, a first .... to give them a better chance at applying one of those techniques .

I think this is part of the problem ; people teach kata , then 'static' ( just standing there ) bunkai , then leap over all these other bridging exercises , into 'free spar ' , no wonder many of those techniques dont transfer . IMO its all about 'dancing around' (fighting ' as usual ' ... however you can AND THEN applying a technique when the opportunity presents itself .

One problem with this is .... without the pain and pond down , people dont react properly

- I mean , at one time I had one of them in a wrist lock / straight arm bar sort of thing, he was bent over and I was continually smacking him with a swinging wild round uppercut to the face ( not really, of course , we dont do comp MMA ) , I got bored and came in with knee to the ribs followed by a down elbow into his spine as he was going down .

Thing is, he could have got me with a back kick after the first face punch ... but he didnt 'think to do that ' ..... I am pretty sure , after one or two more real ones ... he would have .

Thats the thing .... if its not real, its not real ... if it is real ...... thats a bunch of sore and sorry club members afterwards ! Over the years I have had to take a few offs. once months , once a permanent injury .... and thats from NOT trying to hurt each other !
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