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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 5:31 pm    Post subject: KATA QUESTION Reply with quote

When you are doing a variety of katas, often when moving down the embusen ( the line of the original direction you where facing at the start ), and in other directions ( eg. to the side ) you do a series of 'blocks', ( eg upper in Pinan , lower in Passai forms ) whilst moving forward

Yet, in practicing kihon ( or ' one, two or three step sparring ' with a partner ) they are mostly done (as I observe others doing ) by moving backwards .

So, why do you think the forward movement with virtually no backward movement combined with blocking is used in the kata ?

or conversely , if you have a good reason to be moving forward with blocking in the kata , why is so much practice done moving backwards while blocking ?
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because they’re not blocks. They’re attacks.
Karate doesn’t teach any actual blocks.

Most of, if not all of the ‘Uke’ techniques are grappling techniques.

Kihon is a form of practice that was created at the same time or after grappling was removed from karate when being taught to school children. After all a black eye or bloody nose was more desirable than a broken limb or potentially dying because another kid choked you too hard.
Similarly you’ll see Uke techniques going backwards in modern(or more modern kata. Basically every kata created after 1900 or so)

See iain Abernathy, and Jesse enkamp videos and blogs for more information on that subject.
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also have you ever noticed how inefficient Uke techniques are for blocking?
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
Because they’re not blocks. They’re attacks.
Karate doesn’t teach any actual blocks.

Most of, if not all of the ‘Uke’ techniques are grappling techniques.

Kihon is a form of practice that was created at the same time or after grappling was removed from karate when being taught to school children. After all a black eye or bloody nose was more desirable than a broken limb or potentially dying because another kid choked you too hard.
Similarly you’ll see Uke techniques going backwards in modern(or more modern kata. Basically every kata created after 1900 or so)

See iain Abernathy, and Jesse enkamp videos and blogs for more information on that subject.


yeah, that's why I put the apostrophes around 'blocks' .

That would have been my answer - and I have addressed this issue many times here an talked about what those 'blocks' originally where . No real response though .... you are the first 'positive ' response I have got to the idea .

I would be interested to read your take on what the techniques are ? *

- oh yeah , my style is a continuation from before those 'school kid changes' where bought in ; 'Matsamura Sieto Shorin-Ryu via Kosei Nishihira ( via Hohan Soken ) ' . No, you dont want kids learning this .... we dont even have kids in our club , I send them to Shotokan .


* ( One example )

In Shotokan ( as a school kid ) I learned 'outer block ' ; step back r. leg, move right arm across your body to the left and left arm across your body to the right ( crossed arms ) , the left comes across to block the strike and the right goes to the right hip .

In MSSR ; step to the r.side, the r. hand comes across to the left, deflecting the strike, arms are as above , in an X , the r hand is drawn back , the left back knuckles strike the others elbow .

or in an 'inside block ' , similar except the 'ring knuckle' is whipped across into the others wrist at LU8 point . Similar with low block .... whose names dont even mean block anyway, if translated to English .

Understanding Okinawan's 'crane form' is a big help to getting a lot of this ; ' wings open, wings closed ' .
I am interested in WHY people still do it though ; up and down the hall forwards doing 'their blocks' and then going u and down the hall backwards applying those 'blocks' ?


- oh yeah , of course, one can use blocks as well, when the need arises ; 'pre empt, jamming , etc
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2022 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
Also have you ever noticed how inefficient Uke techniques are for blocking?


The whole system of applying them is inefficient - which seems all about doing things in a very specific way and form - ie. practicing 'karate sport' - even though the movements may be inefficient and awkward . Uki actually means 'to sweep aside' which seems the opposite of 'block ' . In many cases that is exactly what we are doing ; sweeping aside an attack ( while evading and 'stinging' at the same time . - 'sting' , strike 'funny bone' or wrist LU8 etc ..... 'weak point ' )

Evade/sweep aside/ sting , control/take down , 'finish' .

One of the biggest differences I have noted is in 'shuto ' , many seem to do it like some type of 'karate chop' . Its actually ( well, in my style) a very subtle controlling and drawing in and twisting /catching 'hand spiral' developed from (or visa versa ) a classical hand movement in Okinawan dance . - it works best against a straight punch, but on one occasion I managed to apply it to a kick boxer who attacked with a wild circular 'hay maker' punch .
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By and large I believe they’re grappling techniques.
Frames, limb manipulations, get aways, and possibly even submissions.

Anything that isn’t clearly a strike in my opinion is related to grappling in some way. It’s just an issue of figuring out those lost applications. Or ‘secret’ applications if that makes one feel better about it.
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For example look at shisochin.
There’s those weird movements that most teach as blocks but I’ve been working on experiment with them as a way breaking a clinch, and leading into an armlock, or armbar takedown
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
Also have you ever noticed how inefficient Uke techniques are for blocking?


The whole system of applying them is inefficient - which seems all about doing things in a very specific way and form - ie. practicing 'karate sport' - even though the movements may be inefficient and awkward . Uki actually means 'to sweep aside' which seems the opposite of 'block ' . In many cases that is exactly what we are doing ; sweeping aside an attack ( while evading and 'stinging' at the same time . - 'sting' , strike 'funny bone' or wrist LU8 etc ..... 'weak point ' )

Evade/sweep aside/ sting , control/take down , 'finish' .

One of the biggest differences I have noted is in 'shuto ' , many seem to do it like some type of 'karate chop' . Its actually ( well, in my style) a very subtle controlling and drawing in and twisting /catching 'hand spiral' developed from (or visa versa ) a classical hand movement in Okinawan dance . - it works best against a straight punch, but on one occasion I managed to apply it to a kick boxer who attacked with a wild circular 'hay maker' punch .
the word isn’t uki its uke, which according to enkamp is a shortening of the word ‘ukeru’ at least I think that’s how it’s spelled, which means to receive.
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aurik
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Uechi-Ryu, the vast majority of our uke in kata are either mawashi-uke or hajike-uke. When performed at the beginner level, the mawashi-uke is a one-handed circular motion that covers the torso and face. However as a student advances they learn that the technique is more properly a two-hand technique where the “off-hand” performs a push-block/guide block to redirect the attack to a safe direction, while the nominal “blocking hand” then performs the circular motion to grab the attack while the off-hand then chambers for a counter.

The hajike-uke is much more straightforward. It can be a block, a strike, or both. A beginner will perform this similar to a jodan barai uke, but advanced students will perform it moving forward and upwards. In one version, the defenders upward “block” will simultaneously move forward to intercept the strike and also strike the opponent in the face.
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LionsDen
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2022 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aurik wrote:
In Uechi-Ryu, the vast majority of our uke in kata are either mawashi-uke or hajike-uke. When performed at the beginner level, the mawashi-uke is a one-handed circular motion that covers the torso and face. However as a student advances they learn that the technique is more properly a two-hand technique where the “off-hand” performs a push-block/guide block to redirect the attack to a safe direction, while the nominal “blocking hand” then performs the circular motion to grab the attack while the off-hand then chambers for a counter.

The hajike-uke is much more straightforward. It can be a block, a strike, or both. A beginner will perform this similar to a jodan barai uke, but advanced students will perform it moving forward and upwards. In one version, the defenders upward “block” will simultaneously move forward to intercept the strike and also strike the opponent in the face.

not to be rude, but that description of what a mawasha-uke is and how to use it, is a big oof.
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