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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: Knee friendly karate? Reply with quote

So I've injured my knee -. Twice in four months. Meniscus tear, not debilitating but aggravated by Zenkutsudatchi, Kiba datchi and any of the standard kicks. According to doc I need to lay off anything which stresses it for at least 6 months, and even then, may just be at an age where my knee will not take the kind of hammer I'm used to it taking now. At first I thought it was curtains for karate, but am wondering if I can modify my style (currently shotokan based freesyle) by at least finding kata which is free of kicks and long stance.

It's a frustration as I've been doing karate for six years now, and was training for 1st dan when I tore my knee.

Any one been in the same boat?

Anyone got a list of knee friendly kata?
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
So I've injured my knee -. Twice in four months. Meniscus tear, not debilitating but aggravated by Zenkutsudatchi, Kiba datchi and any of the standard kicks. According to doc I need to lay off anything which stresses it for at least 6 months, and even then, may just be at an age where my knee will not take the kind of hammer I'm used to it taking now. At first I thought it was curtains for karate, but am wondering if I can modify my style (currently shotokan based freesyle) by at least finding kata which is free of kicks and long stance.

It's a frustration as I've been doing karate for six years now, and was training for 1st dan when I tore my knee.

Any one been in the same boat?

Anyone got a list of knee friendly kata?
I have been in your same boat LastKing.

Initially started due to a nasty motorcycle accident that injured my knees.

Karate exercise aggravated my knees as stretching wasn't enough as they lacked flexibility.

It was a real handicap for progress, I didn't see a future in karate as I was in my late teens at the time.

Doing some less stressful martial arts taking up Tai Chi, regaining strength in my knees, then moving on to TKD.

While in TKD gained a neck and hip injury.

Having some experience in Wing Chun settled for that.

Later becoming involved in JKD three months in the Muay Thai kicking pads put me in a condition of not being able to walk properly due to the stress on my knees.

Having come to the conclusion that what I really lacked was conditioning.

I was right.

Now focusing more on conditioning strength training for martial arts.

Now I can kick harder than ever before and not concerned about past injuries.

I have been using ankle waits now for years, for strength and flexibility.

A part of tonight's training for warm up involved (while laying on my back) strapping a 12kilo cattle bell to each ankle and another 4kilos each in ankle weights.

I also do alot of squats and stretching and use pulley machines.

Point being doing martial arts techniques properly is not enough, conditioning helps towards being able to take the stress and strain.

Now in my 60s, I train twice a day for about 3 or 4 hours, 5 days a week.

This adds up to about 35 hours a week training and conditioning.

This includes about 10 hours a week boxing and 10 hours kicking, the rest of the time is made up in stretching and strength exercises.

My knees can now take the stress of kicking very hard, thanks to conditioning training sessions with time, patience and dedication.

Having long gaps in conditioning is not good, better to slowly progress over time.

Matching the power gained through conditioning with proper techniques is highly recommended.

Hope that helps you LastKing?
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2388
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meniscus tears don’t “take care of themselves” and heal on their own; they’re repaired surgically. Was this an orthopedist who evaluated you or a GP? Not knowing where the tear is nor the extent of it, and not being a physician, I don’t know if you’re a candidate for surgery or not.

Having said that, forget about “knee friendly” kata, kicks, et al. You need to modify what you’re doing to suit your needs. There was a lady at our dojo who needed total knee replacement, and she modified things to fit her pain tolerance. Our teacher basically told her to do whatever she’s comfortable doing. She didn’t do any deep stances, nor did she do kiba dachi. It was obvious she knew what stance she was supposed to be doing, and you could tell she was doing it within her limitations. Any teacher worth their salt will allow a person with a legitimate injury leeway.

Working in sports medicine, I always tell my athletes to work through tightness, stiffness, and soreness; stay away from genuine pain. When there’s genuine pain, you’re making the injury worse.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14607
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, in my youth!! My right knee went one way and I went the other way.

All I did, and it drove me stir crazy, was rest, and physical therapy when the time was ordered...was quite a long while before doctor gave me the ok to return to the floor.

I took no short cuts, and when the doctor said I could go full time on the floor, I was mindful of what the doctor advised....BE CAREFUL!!



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**Proof is on the floor!!!


Last edited by sensei8 on Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knees need conditioning as they are a weapon as well as a vital part of mobility for combat movements.

If a person does not have proper knee mobility for whatever, reason then it is better to do something else.

As it is possible to break a normal knee with a knee stomp, let alone a weak one.

Face reality truthfully, fighting with bad knees is a big disadvantage, either get them repaired or strengthen them, if neither is possible then there is your answer.

As this link below demonstrates what conditioning knees looks like in reality combat training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zfFrn8ku8
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that, chaps. JR, it was a GP, but a sports orientated one. As it stands, I'm waiting for an MRI but have been warned off anything which puts stress on the knee. I had a similar injury four months ago, which was worse, though didn't fit with a meniscut tear, but rather an MCL tear. That settled eventually, but due to differing motion while injured and past activity, the muscles in my leg, hip flexor esp, were very tight. Saw a sports physio who helped, and did plenty of strengthening/foam rollering/stretching, which got it back almost to full mobility. It was only when I re-started training for 1st dan that the knee started being painful again, but again, would seem to settle by next morning. No swelling, pretty much full mobility. Then, doing a roundhouse, I felt, though didn't hear, it pop. I say felt, it was mor sudden pain from inside knee. Cue swelling, pain when squatting and pain when in final range of straightening knee.
It's been two weeks now and the swelling has gone and I can walk on it and straighten it almost fully, though have dull pain when doing so under kneecap at front.
Walking for distance (I have a dog that needs a lot of exercise) brings on faint, dull ache, though that resolves pretty soon after activity is stopped.
for all intents, it feels okay, but I try a bit of kata, gentle, with no stress, no deep stances, no kicks, it brings the dull ache on.
Not looking for an internest diagnosis, as waiting MRI and physio, just got time to ramble.
As said, it feels okay in everyday life, little stiff, little painful from time to time, but just know, I try a roundhouse, however gentle, or Zen stance with a bit of force, and I'll be back to square one or worse.
Have looked at modifyling the kata we do, and it could work. it's a long process though. Then again, when isn't it, knees bad or good?
Thanks all for input.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing, a few ideas for you.
Have you looked in to using,

Power knee stabilizer pads?
https://youtu.be/opzg1i-hpmU

Meniscus recovery
https://youtu.be/5Hf4_1VMzLk
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 74


PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan, thanks for that, much appreciated.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1749

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most karate/general martial arts-related knee injuries are preventable. The solution is learning and practising movements and stances correctly. This means doing them in a way that the knees do not endure stress or torsion at a damaging angle.

The second crucial factor is regular strength and conditioning exercises to ensure that the knees are strong enough to withstand regular sustained training. The same applies for rehabilitation and both ought to be done under the careful guidance of a knowledgeable instructor.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2412


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are welcome LastKing.

Depending on the engine of a martial art will soon find out the weaknesses.

Such as JKD, sudden movements will create a whiplash to the neck; grappling will also find weakness in the neck area.

Muay thai with knees, as this is a target also lacking strength in movements can cause damage.

TKD with sudden direction change for kicking, can twist ankles if not careful or conditioned appropriately.

Boxing are vulnerable to damages, as strength and power develops with practice, wrists might not be

Conditioning for me is a daily issue, as my engine becomes modified other areas of my frame need strengthening to match; similar to modifying a car.

Therefore prescribing something just for knees is a temporary fix as the next weakest link will appear soon enough, then the next and so on.

Suggest conditioning all known weaknesses, with preventative medicine exercises as if they are already damaged!!!

My personal philosophy is to conditioning the body for all martial art movements and not aimed at only one system of fighting.

Condition the body as a whole for fighting purposes, this involves doing it at high speed and coordinated, as if taking the car out on a race track, to see how it holds up.

This is what the class room environment is for to test, find and strengthen weaknesses and fix them safely before causing major damage to one's self.
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