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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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 Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:29 am Post subject: Knee spring in any Karate style? |
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Originally, ITF TaeKwondo performed punching according to the same principles as Shotokan: jerk the hip, tense the abdomen etc.
Then they played around in the 70s and added a very peculiar thing called knee spring, in which you spring the back knee slightly by raising the body upwards and down before you punch.
It is demonstrated below, watch closely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJrIwT6xeII
Now, does any Karate style adhere to this principle of punching? It makes no sense to spring the knee without punching afterwards... Springing the knee is meant as a weight transfer from the back leg to the front leg. But in TaeKwondo, you are supposed to spring the knee, then set it to the ground, THEN punch. Making the motion irrelevant for power generation.
Later they added an additional step (Sinewave), which is to go down, then up, then down. But let's stick to knee spring for the purposes of this thread.
Last edited by Prototype on Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:00 am; edited 2 times in total |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:39 am Post subject: |
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None of the Karate that I've seen has this knee spring, but I'll look out for it.
Our form of Tae Kwon Do is closer to Tang Soo Do, which has the more Japanese influence. We don't do much with a knee spring, and no sine wave what-so-ever.
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:47 am Post subject: |
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I am by no means a proponent of, nor am I a fan of any type of Sinewave; not now, not ever!!
We're taught in Shindokan that any type of sinewave arrests power when it's needed the most, which is to say, at the very top of the apex power curve. We follow that the shortest way from target to target...or...point to point is a straight line.
This is our way, and it's not expected to be the way of others!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
I am by no means a proponent of, nor am I a fan of any type of Sinewave; not now, not ever!!
We're taught in Shindokan that any type of sinewave arrests power when it's needed the most, which is to say, at the very top of the apex power curve. We follow that the shortest way from target to target...or...point to point is a straight line.
This is our way, and it's not expected to be the way of others!!
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This is the precursor to Sine-wave. In Sine-wave you lower the body then raise it, then lower it. Knee spring raises it emidiately then lowers it.
Last edited by Prototype on Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
None of the Karate that I've seen has this knee spring, but I'll look out for it.
Our form of Tae Kwon Do is closer to Tang Soo Do, which has the more Japanese influence. We don't do much with a knee spring, and no sine wave what-so-ever. |
I take it then that your back leg is firmly planted on the ground when punching? |
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Prototype
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Dec 2016
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| I should say ITF Taekwondo.. WTF style Taekwondo does not do knee spring or sine-wave. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Prototype wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
I am by no means a proponent of, nor am I a fan of any type of Sinewave; not now, not ever!!
We're taught in Shindokan that any type of sinewave arrests power when it's needed the most, which is to say, at the very top of the apex power curve. We follow that the shortest way from target to target...or...point to point is a straight line.
This is our way, and it's not expected to be the way of others!!
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This is the precursor to Sine-wave. In Sine-wave you lower the body then raise it, then lower it. Knee spring raises it emidiately then lowers it. |
Precursor or not, its actions, as demonstrated in the OP's video, violates our beliefs. I, still, do respect how other MA styles approach their methodologies and ideologies, particularly in this subject.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Knee spring in any Karate style? |
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| Prototype wrote: |
Originally, ITF TaeKwondo performed punching according to the same principles as Shotokan: jerk the hip, tense the abdomen etc.
Then they played around in the 70s and added a very peculiar thing called knee spring, in which you spring the back knee slightly by raising the body upwards and down before you punch.
It is demonstrated below, watch closely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJrIwT6xeII
Now, does any Karate style adhere to this principle of punching? It makes no sense to spring the knee without punching afterwards... Springing the knee is meant as a weight transfer from the back leg to the front leg. But in TaeKwondo, you are supposed to spring the knee, then set it to the ground, THEN punch. Making the motion irrelevant for power generation.
Later they added an additional step (Sinewave), which is to go down, then up, then down. But let's stick to knee spring for the purposes of this thread. |
Knee spring and sine wave are two different things.
Knee spring creates sine wave.
Knee spring is in all (ITF) movements. Sine wave is only in movements which travel or involve a stance change (but not all stance changes).
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| But in TaeKwondo, you are supposed to spring the knee, then set it to the ground, THEN punch. Making the motion irrelevant for power generation. |
This is not true. In ITF Taekwon-Do you never finish the leg before the punch. Everything MUST finish at the same moment. The punch should finish as the leg drives straight and locks the stance.
I'll admit that the movements you see nowadays are over the top with this movement (often for competition) but from what I've seen recently there is a conscious effort now to reign it back.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Nothing described in the OP is found in Okinawan karate schools. Power generation comes from the core area and short direct movements are stressed. Sine-wave and knee spring seems to be something exclusive to modern Taekwondo and similar Korean arts. Perhaps the change might have been at least in part to make TKD different from Shotokan. |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2358
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't seen any knee spring in anything i've done as karateka. Maybe because I haven't thought about it in what I do, or just haven't been taught something that does this particular movement.
In a sense I can understand why TKD Practitioners do this, as they do a lot of kicking at a height. So in other words it is almost like a prepatory movement regardless of what you are actually doing.
Or I could be totally wrong in my statement above; and any of our lovely TKD Practitioners can correct me on it. As I am in no qualified to talk about TKD as I have never trained in it.
As from what i've seen and learnt in my karate years, is that we are very much at the hip; where our power is generated from there, along with being able to get height whilst remaining balanced. |
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on the post.
