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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| KarateEd wrote: |
| cross wrote: |
1. Clear your body.
2. Secure the weapon hand.
3. Neutralize the attacker.
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I was thinking about a knife attack while reading another post and the common defenses seem to follow the above three steps. However, I wonder whether step three should be "separation of the weapon (knife in this case) from the attacker" instead of "neutralizing the attacker" (which is rather broad in scope). Often I see knife defenses that involve a block or grab then a strike of some kind. I can see the merit in such a strategy as one tries to put "pain in the brain" of the attacker and divert his focus from "attack" to that new pain that just coursed through his body. However, if the strike proves less effective and doesn't capture the enemies mind, then he still has the weapon in hand. Would it not be best to first remove the weapon, then neutralize? Is removal considered neutralization? 
Ed |
Interesting point. Neutralizing the attacker refers to doing whatever it takes to remove the threat. You "might" be able to seperate them from the knife, but if you cant do that extremely quickly, they will catch on and you will get into a tug of war over the blade. Even if you do remove the blade, unless you have caused them serious injury already, they are still a threat to you, only difference is they are unarmed now.
You note that the term "neutralizing the attacker" is broad, i agree with this and the reason is because you should not be limited to just removing the blade, or just striking them, but rather do whatever it takes to neutralize the attacker. If you have the chance to remove the blade, then by all means do it, however without attacking them in some way first, your chances are slim.
Its also important to know that the idea behind the principle is to continue attacking until the weapon is no longer in the attackers possession, and they are no longer a threat. |
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KarateEd
Black Belt
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 1020
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| cross wrote: |
You note that the term "neutralizing the attacker" is broad, i agree with this and the reason is because you should not be limited to just removing the blade, or just striking them, but rather do whatever it takes to neutralize the attacker. If you have the chance to remove the blade, then by all means do it, however without attacking them in some way first, your chances are slim.
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This makes sense. If someone becomes too fixated on just removing the weapon then he will be limiting his options and probably limiting his chances for survivability.
Ed
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Ed |
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Johnlogic121
Orange Belt
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 156
Styles: Montgomery Style Karate, Ninjutsu, Isshinryu, Judo, Mang Chaun Kung Fu, Kempo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: Knife fighting |
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There has been an interesting discussion going on in this thread, but the original post was asking whether it would be more common to encounter someone who was holding the blade in a 'sword grip' or an 'icepick grip.' The anlges at which someone can attack with the sword grip are more numerous and favorble for causing damage, so that grip offers the most to a trained martial artist. For that reason, most martial artists will grip a blade like it is a short sword. This universal cross palm grip allows you to thrust straight or cut the neck sideways. The downward grip might be more handy when you pull a knife from a sheath, but it is also very dangerous. Some people practice the ability to shift from one grip to another while the blade is in one hand without using the other hand, and I have met one martial artist who could do this so well he could slash the body, turn the blade, and then attack the neck in one stroke when sparring with wooden knives. I would recommend that you practice defense to at least a dozen different knife attacks rather than just two of the most common and be aware that you will probably get cut and overwhlemed by a knife wielding attacker. I would bet on the knife fighter with 10 to 1 odds over an unarmed martial artist, but some self defense techniques are possible to try that do work occassionally.
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First Grandmaster - Montgomery Style Karate; 12 year Practitioner - Bujinkan Style Ninjutsu; Isshinryu, Judo, Mang Chaun Kung Fu, Kempo |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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As to the inital post, Logic has a good point, most martial artist will consistantly and automatically go to a "sword" type grip. I would bet that the "icepick" grip is probibly utilized more by the average person on the street and can't be discounted.
DOJ had a artical out a few years back now that indicated that most domestics that ended in knife assult often resulted in a "downward stab" to the victim. Take the information for what it's worth. I don't have the reference right now, I'll see if I can dig it up.
Logic is also right, knife attacks suck. You're already at a signifigant disadvantage when you begin your countering movements. This is where the mindset training I always preach comes in. Are you gonna get cut? You bet? Are you gonna care? Nope, not until he's dead. That's it, you have to accept that this is it, worry about being cut and you're hurt worse. That's why mindset training prior to conflict is critical.
Now, geting off my soap box...
I think that yes, you have to practice against a multitude of attacks. This needs to run the gambut from stabs to threatens to every thing in between. The more you make these drills spontaneous, the more likey you will be able to pull them off in the street when eveything is going to the crapper. Attack and defense drills should be chroeographed at early belt levels, it's how we learn principle. Once those movemnents and priciples are engraned, try to move away from set drills to randomized attacks and defenses.
Bushido man does raise a good point about practicing heavily with both the "sword" and "icepick" attacks. You have to start somewhere learning movements, why not with the two most common attacks. And I think certainly that statistics bear out that most crimes commintted with a knife where someone is hurt are of the "grab and stab" variety. Cuts are much more rare, again, not unheard of, just less utilized.
The principles I follow are:
Evade
Stun
Unbalance
Control
Almost everything works around these priciples. So you avoid an attack. Hit this guy enough to hurt him, or at least distract him. Take his center to minimize the chance of further counter attack. Then you control, wheater by stripping the knife (not my favorite option and not a final control of the situation in any case), or perminatly ending the threat if called for.
When you add weapons, you need to consider contorling the weapon and the distance first and foremost. This may very well let you escape. Finally, consider escalating weapons. Get a longer weapon, or range to counter the attacker.
Broad priciples? Yes, just like another post ealier. But this learves to unfetter the mind and free it from technique. |
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