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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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 Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:54 pm Post subject: Korean-Japanese Karate... |
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Before we start, this is not so much a Tang Soo Do thread but rather, how Japanese karate shaped Korean martial arts.
A bit of a background, Tang Soo Do is ancient Korean martial arts mixed with Northern Kung Fu and mixed with Karate from Japan. That being said, one VERY important thing to note is...there is 9 styles of Tang Soo Do and some looked exactly like karate.
My question is, what specific technique and ideas of Japanese Karate was passed on to the Korean martial arts of modern times?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:04 am Post subject: |
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I'd say that Shotokan had a big influence on Tang Soo Do, if not so many other MA styles, especially in Japanese Kata. Tang Soo Do forms exacting from every movement taken mainly from Japanese Shotokan Karate Kata.
Kee Cho forms are Funakoshi creation...Taikyoku.
Then there's Pyung Ahn forms that came from Okinawan and Japanese Karate; Pinan/Heian, which were creations of Itosu...Funakoshi's teacher.
Pal Che is Bassai in Karate; created by Matsumura.
Naihanchi which Hwang Kee learned from reading one of Funakoshi's books.
Kata after all can be seen as the universal key as to any MA styles origin/core, Tang Soo Do is of no exception. In Kata we can see techniques that are quite familiar.
So I can easily see how Japanese Karate has helped form Tang Soo Do. Of no surprise because one can see "Karate" in quite a many styles of the MA. Adaptations vary, but perhaps when one starts to peel away the layers of any MA style, some other core(s) emerge.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Neither TKD nor TSD are 9000 year old Martial Arts. What may have passed as a Taek Kyon influence faded a long time ago, with the Japanese occupation. TKD and TSD are more directly related to Karate than one might think. Many of the early masters of the original Kwans were trained in various Japanese styles, and after the occupation, nationalism took over, and in an effort to throw off the yoke of all things Japanese, an "ancient Martial Tradition" was hatched up and became the norm when the Koreans described their Martial Art and its "roots."
It's not a coincidence that you notice the striking similarities in Karate and TSD.
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Himokiri Karate
Member of the Month
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 408
Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate
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| Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
I'd say that Shotokan had a big influence on Tang Soo Do, if not so many other MA styles, especially in Japanese Kata. Tang Soo Do forms exacting from every movement taken mainly from Japanese Shotokan Karate Kata.
Kee Cho forms are Funakoshi creation...Taikyoku.
Then there's Pyung Ahn forms that came from Okinawan and Japanese Karate; Pinan/Heian, which were creations of Itosu...Funakoshi's teacher.
Pal Che is Bassai in Karate; created by Matsumura.
Naihanchi which Hwang Kee learned from reading one of Funakoshi's books.
Kata after all can be seen as the universal key as to any MA styles origin/core, Tang Soo Do is of no exception. In Kata we can see techniques that are quite familiar.
So I can easily see how Japanese Karate has helped form Tang Soo Do. Of no surprise because one can see "Karate" in quite a many styles of the MA. Adaptations vary, but perhaps when one starts to peel away the layers of any MA style, some other core(s) emerge.
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It is so very strange. Some Tang Soo Do styles ( or sects maybe) have a style that is extremely similar to ITF taekwondo. Some even are more of an acrobatic version of Kyokushin Karate. On YouTube, it looks like shotokan. In fact online Tang Soo Do looks very much like Shotokan.
This is why its confusing, Pat Johnson who worked on karate kid and trained the cobra kai and its style concept teaches in real life. His Tang Soo Do looks like the old school western kickboxing with smaller gloves like the MMA.
Of course, there is not any form of shotokan school that likes to bounce around in their traditional training. Sport karate being the exception which of course is its own entity. This got me wondering, breaking down Tang Soo Do= Taekkyon/kung fu and karate. What percent is which. Also is it possible that, with passing of time, there are new Tang Soo Do schools that incorporate Kyokushin with Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo since the founder of kyokushin was Korean by birth?
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
Neither TKD nor TSD are 9000 year old Martial Arts. What may have passed as a Taek Kyon influence faded a long time ago, with the Japanese occupation. TKD and TSD are more directly related to Karate than one might think. Many of the early masters of the original Kwans were trained in various Japanese styles, and after the occupation, nationalism took over, and in an effort to throw off the yoke of all things Japanese, an "ancient Martial Tradition" was hatched up and became the norm when the Koreans described their Martial Art and its "roots."
It's not a coincidence that you notice the striking similarities in Karate and TSD. |
You are correct, I worded badly. I meant that Taekkyon is ancient which happens to be a part of Tang Soo Do but Tang Soo Do I believe was a style that was pioneered in Korea-Japan and renamed Taekwondo to separate themselves from the Japanese and Chinese identity.
Its funny but I am beginning to see that even within a particular sub-style of karate, an emergence of new styles or new methods. Some forms of hybridization is beginning to emerge between Tang Soo Do, kyokushin and Taekwondo which all have its roots in Korea. In the fighter in the wind, the founder of Kyokushin is supposed to be well versed in a little bit of Taekkyon and Kung fu. Not sure if this was accurate or not.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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In anything I've ever read about the old Kwan founders, most of them were claimed to have been trained in Taek Kyon at some point in there lives. However, nothing I've ever seen in the styles ever lends itself to that. They may claim that Taek Kyon is where the spinning kicks came from, but I'm not really inclined to believe that is the case, either. I feel that all the claims of roots in Taek Kyon are unfounded.
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| In anything I've ever read about the old Kwan founders, most of them were claimed to have been trained in Taek Kyon at some point in there lives. However, nothing I've ever seen in the styles ever lends itself to that. They may claim that Taek Kyon is where the spinning kicks came from, but I'm not really inclined to believe that is the case, either. I feel that all the claims of roots in Taek Kyon are unfounded. |
I agree with this. Any Taek Kyon claims you see now are more of a retcon or a reimaging of what Taek Kyon really was and squeezing it into Korean Karate to make it different from Japanese Karate (spinning kicks).
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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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eighthundred
White Belt
Joined: 16 Sep 2021
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all...
Stumbled across this thread as I fell into a typical google rabbit hole and saw that taekkyeon was mentioned. Just wanted to clarify some things about taekkyeon since there is not a lot of substantial information about it available in English.
| Quote: |
| In anything I've ever read about the old Kwan founders, most of them were claimed to have been trained in Taek Kyon at some point in there lives. However, nothing I've ever seen in the styles ever lends itself to that. They may claim that Taek Kyon is where the spinning kicks came from, but I'm not really inclined to believe that is the case, either. I feel that all the claims of roots in Taek Kyon are unfounded. |
| Quote: |
| I agree with this. Any Taek Kyon claims you see now are more of a retcon or a reimaging of what Taek Kyon really was and squeezing it into Korean Karate to make it different from Japanese Karate (spinning kicks). |
Taekkyeon being a retcon/reimagining is in a roundabout way partially true. The problem is that taekkyeon is not a monolith and there are in fact four main organizations who all teach different curricula despite claiming to come from the same root source = Song Duk Ki. This is generally what most people don't understand about taekkyeon.
Of the four aforementioned organizations, the smallest and least known is Song Duk Ki's taekkyeon (called Widae Taekkyeon <~~ I'll explain more about this later), which looks very different from the rest. The other organizations are what I'd call the "retcons" and are in fact greatly influenced by taekwondo. This is simply because the founders of these other organizations all had backgrounds in TKD. And this goes to answer the first part of what I quoted above... the claims of being trained in taekkyeon by TKD people... only a handful of people can claim to have been trained in taekkyeon and there are various reasons as to which I'll explain.
Taekkyeon is only known to have existed in Seoul. All historical record (paintings, pictures, written accounts) of taekkyeon were recorded around what is now modern day Seoul. This is not to say it didn't exist in other parts of Korea under a different name. In fact, that is the current popular theory. Some of you may have heard of Soo Bahk -- different from Soo Bahk Do, although the latter obviously took inspiration from the former -- some believe taekkyeon and soo bahk could have been the same as they are mentioned together in at least one historical document, but it's not clear if they are one and the same. Also, it is not uncommon for something to have a different name in another region of the country in general because culturally Koreans (especially historically) tend to be tribal.
This tribal nature is related to taekkyeon and where I personally believe the "game" aspect/misconception comes from. I mentioned that Song's taekkyeon is called Widae taekkyeon. Widae is loosely translated to something like "upper village" and describes an area of Seoul within the gates of what was historical Seoul. This area is where Song lived all his life, specifically in a neighborhood called Sajik right outside the walls of the palace. Taekkyeon itself is described by Song and in historical evidence as a competition between villages. Song described an Araetdae, or lower village, that existed outside the gates of old Seoul.
I describe all this to give some background and to also make the point that if someone were to claim to have been trained in taekkyeon it would have had to have been in Seoul pre WWII. This itself is unlikely because Song rose to prominence based on the fact that he was the last known inheritor of taekkyeon, which eventually led to his designation as a living cultural asset of Korea. I want to point out that many Koreans knew the existence of taekkyeon at this time, but just did not know the skills. In fact, the first president of Korea is famously known to have called what is now TKD taekkyeon the first time it was demonstrated to him. And TKD is indeed called such to more closely resemble taekkyeon.
The next logical point if someone were to claim to have been trained in taekkyeon would have had to have been with Song Duk Ki post Korean war. Many individuals did seek out Song once he became known, but only a very small handful can say they actually trained under him. If we were to examine the three current heads of the "retcons" only one can claim to have learned from Song directly and for any significant length of time. In reality, most people who sought Song out probably learned a few moves here and there and went on their way. And some of these techniques did make their way into TKD - kahl jebi being the most famous example.
The current leader of Widae Taekkyeon, by the way, lived in the same neighborhood as Song Duk Ki and was Song's longest tenured disciple before moving to the US a few years prior to Song's death. Song Duk Ki died in the late 1980s and the retcon organizations popped up after the mid to late 90s. Paints a picture doesn't it?
Anyways, I hope this is useful information. I'll gladly answer any follow up questions for those interested.
(EDIT - Sorry about the formatting.)
Last edited by eighthundred on Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to KF, eighthundred; glad that you're here. Thank you for that information regarding to the topic here at hand; solid post!!
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eighthundred
White Belt
Joined: 16 Sep 2021
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the welcome. |
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on the post.
