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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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 Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:21 am Post subject: Koryu(old) Passai |
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Does anyone have any insight on the origins of the kata Passai? The most well known and practised versions are the dai and sho version from Matsumura and his student Itosu. However there is an older version that is included in only a few lineages called Koryu(old style) Passai.
It supposedly Predates both Matsumura’s ans Itosu’s versions. All sources clearly define it as being Chinese in origin, but nothing more specific. Any theories or leads would be helpful |
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Ryan34
White Belt
Joined: 22 Apr 2020
Posts: 5
Styles: Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, Boxing, Kick Boxing
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:47 am Post subject: |
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https://www.ikigaiway.com/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/
This is the best article I have seen about the historicity and variations of Passai that is available on the web.
Koryu Passai is usually a matter of lineage. In Kobayashi-Ryu, Itosu-no-Passai Dai has been displaced by Tawada ha Matsumura no Passai as the Passai Dai of said systems. In said systems, Tawada Passai is Passai Dai, and Itosu-no-Passai Dai is identified as Passai Sho. Some Kobayashi-Ryu schools have retained the original Itosu-no-Passai Sho as Koryu Passai or Passai Gwa.
In Shi'to-Ryu, it is not unusual to hear Tomari Bassai (derived from Nagemine's version of Passai Dai) called Koryu Passai to distinguish it from the Bassai Dai and Sho of Itosu as practised in Shi'to-Ryu. It is undeniably older in origin than the Itosu-no-Passai but whether it deserves such a designation is debatable.
Lastly, in the west I have heard people call the oldest known versions of Passai, Matsumura no Passai and Oyadomari no Passai, Koshiki or Koryu Passai. How accurate such a practice is to reality is debatable.
There is no version older than the Matsumura or Oyadomari version. Any claim to the otherwise should be treated with profound scepticism without compelling evidence presented.
My personal working hypothesis, for many of the older kata, is that they are abridgements of older Chinese Forms, or are collections of disparate techniques organised into a form on Okinawa by Okinawans even if the techniques may be of foreign origin. I believe that Passai has a significant Chinese influence, but the reason we cannot find a form alike to Passai in Chinese martial arts is that:
1. Its Chinese analogue went extinct.
2. It never existed in Chinese Martial Arts in the First Place.
With Passai, I am inclined to believe the second is likely true, just because we cannot confirm a Chinese origin (In comparison to another old kata such as Seisan), the name has no clear meaning, and although it bears resemblance to Chinese Martial arts: it bears resemblance to several. I believe it is a collection of techniques of Chinese Origin worked into a Kata of Okinawan Origin. However, that is as far as I can get with my research.
_________________
R. Keith Williams |
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Fat Cobra
Green Belt
Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 372
Location: Watertown, NY
Styles: Ryukyu Kempo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Awesome article which really explains all the branches. I knew there were different Passai, but was unclear why until I read this article.
I practice the Nakamura Passai, as passed down to Taika Oyata and then through him to Amor Kaicho.
| Wado Heretic wrote: |
https://www.ikigaiway.com/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/
This is the best article I have seen about the historicity and variations of Passai that is available on the web.
Koryu Passai is usually a matter of lineage. In Kobayashi-Ryu, Itosu-no-Passai Dai has been displaced by Tawada ha Matsumura no Passai as the Passai Dai of said systems. In said systems, Tawada Passai is Passai Dai, and Itosu-no-Passai Dai is identified as Passai Sho. Some Kobayashi-Ryu schools have retained the original Itosu-no-Passai Sho as Koryu Passai or Passai Gwa.
In Shi'to-Ryu, it is not unusual to hear Tomari Bassai (derived from Nagemine's version of Passai Dai) called Koryu Passai to distinguish it from the Bassai Dai and Sho of Itosu as practised in Shi'to-Ryu. It is undeniably older in origin than the Itosu-no-Passai but whether it deserves such a designation is debatable.
Lastly, in the west I have heard people call the oldest known versions of Passai, Matsumura no Passai and Oyadomari no Passai, Koshiki or Koryu Passai. How accurate such a practice is to reality is debatable.
There is no version older than the Matsumura or Oyadomari version. Any claim to the otherwise should be treated with profound scepticism without compelling evidence presented.
My personal working hypothesis, for many of the older kata, is that they are abridgements of older Chinese Forms, or are collections of disparate techniques organised into a form on Okinawa by Okinawans even if the techniques may be of foreign origin. I believe that Passai has a significant Chinese influence, but the reason we cannot find a form alike to Passai in Chinese martial arts is that:
1. Its Chinese analogue went extinct.
2. It never existed in Chinese Martial Arts in the First Place.
With Passai, I am inclined to believe the second is likely true, just because we cannot confirm a Chinese origin (In comparison to another old kata such as Seisan), the name has no clear meaning, and although it bears resemblance to Chinese Martial arts: it bears resemblance to several. I believe it is a collection of techniques of Chinese Origin worked into a Kata of Okinawan Origin. However, that is as far as I can get with my research. |
_________________
Yondan in Ryukyu Kempo
Head of the Shubu Kan Dojo in Carthage, NY
(United Ryukyu Kempo Alliance) |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Wado Heretic wrote: |
https://www.ikigaiway.com/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/
This is the best article I have seen about the historicity and variations of Passai that is available on the web.
Koryu Passai is usually a matter of lineage. In Kobayashi-Ryu, Itosu-no-Passai Dai has been displaced by Tawada ha Matsumura no Passai as the Passai Dai of said systems. In said systems, Tawada Passai is Passai Dai, and Itosu-no-Passai Dai is identified as Passai Sho. Some Kobayashi-Ryu schools have retained the original Itosu-no-Passai Sho as Koryu Passai or Passai Gwa.
In Shi'to-Ryu, it is not unusual to hear Tomari Bassai (derived from Nagemine's version of Passai Dai) called Koryu Passai to distinguish it from the Bassai Dai and Sho of Itosu as practised in Shi'to-Ryu. It is undeniably older in origin than the Itosu-no-Passai but whether it deserves such a designation is debatable.
Lastly, in the west I have heard people call the oldest known versions of Passai, Matsumura no Passai and Oyadomari no Passai, Koshiki or Koryu Passai. How accurate such a practice is to reality is debatable.
There is no version older than the Matsumura or Oyadomari version. Any claim to the otherwise should be treated with profound scepticism without compelling evidence presented.
My personal working hypothesis, for many of the older kata, is that they are abridgements of older Chinese Forms, or are collections of disparate techniques organised into a form on Okinawa by Okinawans even if the techniques may be of foreign origin. I believe that Passai has a significant Chinese influence, but the reason we cannot find a form alike to Passai in Chinese martial arts is that:
1. Its Chinese analogue went extinct.
2. It never existed in Chinese Martial Arts in the First Place.
With Passai, I am inclined to believe the second is likely true, just because we cannot confirm a Chinese origin (In comparison to another old kata such as Seisan), the name has no clear meaning, and although it bears resemblance to Chinese Martial arts: it bears resemblance to several. I believe it is a collection of techniques of Chinese Origin worked into a Kata of Okinawan Origin. However, that is as far as I can get with my research. |
This was a fantastic read, with all the video references and the timeline piece to provide a visual aid, especially for a non-Karate practitioner. Thanks for sharing it; I really enjoyed the read!
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I always refer people to Matt's article on topics like this, and Wado Heretic's breakdown is good. I will add that Tachimura no Passai would be considered a contemporary to the Matsumura/Oyadomari versions of Passai, given that it was passed down by a contemporary of Matsumura Sokon, but while I have learned the kata, it is not publicly available to watch and compare. It's quite similar on some ways, but has some unique variations to it, and its softer nature does fit more in-line with both Chinese arts and Udundi, so I would tend to think it's a bit more true to its roots than the other versions, but that's an opinion, not a fact.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| I will add that Tachimura no Passai would be considered a contemporary to the Matsumura/Oyadomari versions of Passai, given that it was passed down by a contemporary of Matsumura Sokon, but while I have learned the kata, it is not publicly available to watch and compare. It's quite similar on some ways, but has some unique variations to it, and its softer nature does fit more in-line with both Chinese arts and Udundi, so I would tend to think it's a bit more true to its roots than the other versions, but that's an opinion, not a fact. |
This is an important factor to consider when discussing old kata from Okinawa. During the late 19th and early 20th century, a division did emerge between what has retroactively become known as Village Karate and School/Town Karate.
School Karate is the ancestor of what might be considered Orthodox Okinawan Karate: Shorin-Ryu Kobayashi and Matsubayashi, and Goju-Ryu. In the Ryukyu Kingdom, and well into the 1800s on Okinawa, many exponents and experts of Chinese Martial Arts gathered on a regular basis in Matsuyama Park and exchanged knowledge. This is why we see a significant recurrence of various patterns of movement appear in the kata of distinct geographical origin and association. During the early 20th century the famed Itosu Anko introduced a version of Karate to the Okinawan School System. Hioganna Kanryo, the most prolific teacher of Tode-Jutsu in Naha, also started teaching publically around the same time. Many of their students also came together to form organisations such as the Tode Kenkyukai and engage in significant cross-training. Members of the aforementioned groups were also among the first teachers on Okinawa to accept the conceits of Nippon Karate-Do in the 1930s before said conceits were largely enforced in the 1950s by their export to Okinawa by the JKA. Through this long process, we have the existence of Orthodox Okinawan Karate, which is the most widely practised interpretation and most easily accessed.
However, while the students of Itosu and Higoanna are those that most widely spread their karate, there were many who persevered in the "Old Way" and passed down a distinct lineage. There were also many who travelled to China and studied the Chinese Arts directly, and brought back with them a distinct art, and preserved said art as a family-style: Ryuei-Ryu being a famous example. Thus, there are many schools of Heterodox systems, and each would be worthy of an article themselves. As many kata originate in Chinese Kempo one can expect to see many versions of Kata with the same name, but with a different substance.
In each generation, you have those who see their responsibility as preservation, and those who see their responsibility as rejuvenation. This is true now, and it was true in the past. There will always be those that follow the trend of the day to remain relevant, and there will be those who set the trend of the day and those who refuse to follow it. Some will change their Kata for the purpose of competition success. Others will undo such changes and try to reinvent the wheel and restore the Kata to its roots. Keeping in mind how this influences change from generation to generation is important for understanding change and deviation.
_________________
R. Keith Williams |
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on the post.
