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Iskrax
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 23 Apr 2014
Posts: 41

Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:53 pm    Post subject: Kyokushin versus Shotokan kumite Reply with quote

Hey karatekas!

Imagine situation when Shotokan karateka and kyokushin karateka do kumite. How do you think it would go? Full speed, full contact. The task is to win by showing proper techniques and not to KO opponent, just some contact.

We all know that Shotokan karatekas are very fast with their leg techniques and fast tzukis.

We all know that Kyokushinkai karatekas are famous for their strong low kicks and tobi mawashi geri.

My prediction:

The fight would be very interesting. On one hand Shotokan people work in long distance while Kyokushinkai work in close distance. This means that both martial artists would be feeling uncomfortable. Shotokan lad would be in real trouble trying to stand too close to the Kyokushinkai. He knows that leg kicks are very dangerous. He would keep his distance, attacking from distance using fast tzukis and mawashis (perhaps throwing some ashi barai techniques?). Kyokushin guy would need to catch the right time to attack when Shotokan lad comes. Otherwise he is in trouble....

See yourself. This is the closest kumite fight I could find between styles. Nichollas is famous kyokushinkai karate who trained under Masutatsu Oyama, his opponent is Okinawan-shotokan karateka.

This video just shows difference between styles or maybe how the kumite between styles would be?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5At0AnSUw


How do you see this fight?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14301
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a draw or a decided win between these two styles. As in any Kumite between MAists, anyone can lose and anyone can win; nothing is ever written in stone. I don't see one style dominating over the other style!!



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27678
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When contact levels are allowed to go up, and when the fight isn't stopped for a point, things will change. If there is "just some contact," then it isn't full contact. In this case, the advantage will probably go to the quicker tactics in scoring an ippon.

Take the ippon away, and you have a full contact fighter who is used to taking shots and exchanging.

Two different worlds.
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 897

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you have a different definition of "full speed, full contact" there will be considerably more than "just some contact".

If the Shotokan practitioner hasn't any experience in actual full contact, continual sparring, they will be at a significant disadvantage. Speed only goes so far when the person you are hitting doesn't mind taking a few superficial bits of contact to work longer, more effective combinations.

Yes, they both bring things to the table. And, all attributes being the same, there is still no way to make a hard and fast call as to who wins. That being said, the Kyokushin fighter has been there done that as far as full speed, full contact is concerned. Punches to the face might be disconcerting, but they have their heads targeted by leg techniques all the time. The advantages are theirs in this sort of set up.
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Iskrax
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 23 Apr 2014
Posts: 41

Styles: Shotokan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoriKid wrote:
Unless you have a different definition of "full speed, full contact" there will be considerably more than "just some contact".

If the Shotokan practitioner hasn't any experience in actual full contact, continual sparring, they will be at a significant disadvantage. Speed only goes so far when the person you are hitting doesn't mind taking a few superficial bits of contact to work longer, more effective combinations.

Yes, they both bring things to the table. And, all attributes being the same, there is still no way to make a hard and fast call as to who wins. That being said, the Kyokushin fighter has been there done that as far as full speed, full contact is concerned. Punches to the face might be disconcerting, but they have their heads targeted by leg techniques all the time. The advantages are theirs in this sort of set up.


but Kyokushin fighter is usually in stand by and stiff position. Shotokan karate moves way more so
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 897

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iskrax wrote:
ShoriKid wrote:
Unless you have a different definition of "full speed, full contact" there will be considerably more than "just some contact".

If the Shotokan practitioner hasn't any experience in actual full contact, continual sparring, they will be at a significant disadvantage. Speed only goes so far when the person you are hitting doesn't mind taking a few superficial bits of contact to work longer, more effective combinations.

Yes, they both bring things to the table. And, all attributes being the same, there is still no way to make a hard and fast call as to who wins. That being said, the Kyokushin fighter has been there done that as far as full speed, full contact is concerned. Punches to the face might be disconcerting, but they have their heads targeted by leg techniques all the time. The advantages are theirs in this sort of set up.


but Kyokushin fighter is usually in stand by and stiff position. Shotokan karate moves way more so

You need to watch more Kyoko shin fighters. There are many that are very mobile. Additionally, when you start hitting for power, and targeting the legs, it changes the way you move. High, light, and bouncy does not mix well with giving and taking powerful blows. As a side note, kicks to the legs are long distance techniques. There is a difference between staying out of range and darting in for a single blow and moving in to set up combinations.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27678
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. Kyokushin fighters aren't statues. They aren't moving around and that jittery fashion playing tag.
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Budokaprince
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 22 Oct 2016
Posts: 5
Location: Fort Lee, NJ United States
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

I have checked out many styles, many dojos in person, and countless hours of video and reading the forums.

There's two misconceptions with Kyokushin and Shotokan.

1. All Shotokan stylists only train light- no contact......
Not true. Some Shotokan practitioners train full-contact and point sparing. Although not the norm- you will definitely hear of Shotokan guys training and participating in full contact tournaments.

2. All Kyokushin stylists are flat footed.
Not all Kyokushin practitioners are stiff solid foot. Definitely not as "bouncy" as some other stylists for sure. But we move too! .. However, as with any stereotype, there's some truth to it. So I make sure I try to work on that speed as well.


There's pros and cons to both point sparring and full contact. I think all styles should integrate each(with a focus on full contact )

Osu!
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MichaelJames
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 28 Mar 2017
Posts: 2
Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've studied Shotokan for about twenty years now, and when I was in Afghanistan I had the chance to do some "light sparring" with a Kyokushin student of approximately equal time in training. This was my take-away from that:

1) We meant completely different things when we said "light sparring".
2) I was unused to my legs being kicked and the particular style of KKS punching.
3) He made no general effort to block his face from punches, because they don't punch the jodan.
4) KKS is a very good style of karate for actual fighting. I happened to kick him in the face (and not gently), and he was able to shrug it off. Same with body punches. Taking repeated, strong punches to the chudan took some getting used to.
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 387
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBTVhbL3jGs

The above is a pretty relevant example of the pulsing of sports karate versus the more set approach of Knockdown karate. The speed was the deciding factor, for which pulsing can help, and the kyokushin fighter did not expect the kick at all. He did not have his chin tucked in, nor did he bring his hands up in any sort of defence; he failed to react at all, and the kick might as well have been a sucker-punch.

As can be seen in Muay Thai stances, and from Knockdown fighters who practice the classic "stand and bang" approach the legs are kept set to deal with low kicks. Even in Savate, where head hunting is a popular tactic due to the points system, pulsing is very subdued in comparison to pure point fighting. Pulsing can also be seen in modern knock-down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5LjQIWenk0

Mike Ninomiya uses some excellent intermittent "pulsing" to set up some of his offensive combinations, and to stay evasive, but is otherwise flat footed like most classic full-contact fighters.

In a fight between two practitioners where one is a point, and the other knockdown, kumite fighter; it would come down to the balance of fleetness of foot, but also the ability to absorb distance controlling techniques such as low kicks. Using "pulsing" I suspect a Shotokan fighter could control the distance, and use powerful and fast percussive blows at a distance, however, if the kyokushin fighter was wily he could very quickly eliminate that advantage in mobility as per Hajime Kazumi; whom favoured punching and low kicks over the dynamic kicks of his contemporaries.

If it devolved into "stand and bang" then I would have to give it to the Kyokushin fighter, unless we are talking a particular Shotokan practitioner of excellent conditioning.
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