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Profacci
White Belt
Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 14
Styles: Kyokushin KaiKan
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 Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:46 am Post subject: Kyokushin vs Other Karate Styles. Cold Hard Facts!!!!! |
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Let's be honest folks. I appreciate all the replies to this subject, but I am getting nothing more than opinions in favor of the style that the reply-e practices.
Kyokushin is a Fighting Art more than a Martial Art, and to those who understand the difference the following will be easy to follow.
I have trained in other styles of Karate in the past just to get a feel for the other variations that are out there, and to better understand them from experience and not from a Forum conversation. These include Shotokan, Kenpo, Shindenkan, and Goju.
I will be the first to admit that all of the forementioned styles I gained respect for. They all had similar Kata, had similar if not identical kicks, punches, throws, sweeps etc. The one thing that seperated us from them was not what we trained in, rather how we trained. Kyokushin emphasizes (overly sometimes) a harsh training regimen that consists of primarily hard basics for warm ups, hard full speed drills, severe emphasis on technique and the physics behind them, full contact sparring at low speed for technique and high speed for ring experience, body conditioning for impact absorbtion, Sanchin for endurance and mental toughness and Kata. At no time are pads of any kind allowed for multiple reasons. Punching (both closed fist and open hand to the face and body) kicking, and throwing are the focal points!! Yet, we do in fact train in multiple grappling and manipulation aspects. While they are not the STRONG POINTS of Kyokushin, they ARE part of the training and have been so long as I know of. YES we do use elbows, knees and just about anything that can be projected from the body. Kyokushin does allow any and all kicks and knees to the head, as well as any desired hand or leg technique to the body. The point of a Kyokushin match is to quickly, effectively, and unquestionably knock out the opponent. Not to score points and go on for rounds. Having explained a bit about the "Art" of Kyokushin I can now tell you why it differs from "Traditional" Karate. Most other systems (with the exception of MT and Goju) train for sport and do not for the most part require a strict and harsh training regimen. Most sytems tend to teach for the art and preach the importance of not having to use force to deal with force. I spent many months training with these systems learning their techniques and although I got to understand many techniques in depth, we were not allowed to put them to use. We were just "told" that they would work. I think most of you will agree thatin order to know what works for an individual, you must learn, practice, and put to practical use each and every technique to better understand what works for you. No 2 people can assume that they can both use a technique effectively and in the same situation seeing that they are both different and will react differently. I really did appreciate what I learned from these other guys and I respect them tremendously.
That being said, I also learned that I prefer the reality and harshness that only in Kyokushin I have found. Kyokushin means "Ultimate Truth" and that is what we strive for. No, we are not allowed to punch to the head in a bout, but then again I think most are thankful for that fact. If we are devestating without the hand strikes to the head, it is only better that we don't cross into that realm. Well, in the dojo atleast.  Do we have a better understanding now? It is, what it is.
Think about what happens if Kyokushin fighters are allowed to fight MT guys under their rules, but without the gloves. We don't use gloves because we don't head hunt. If they take off the gloves and fight by our rules and we are allowed to strike the head as they did in the days of Oyama in Japan and Korea, there is no competition. 5 Kyokushin top fighters vs 5 MT top fighters and the result was KK4 MT1. Then again the rules have changed. Gee, how convenient. I respect all styles, but lean towards those in our realm. The Fighting Arts!! I just don't like seeing true Martial Artist beeing mislead by your run of the mill corner dojo that just wants to claim a stake in their city's black belt production line. You know what I mean. Now, Any Comments folks?
By the way, My true respect to the following arts as they have so much to offer for their students in my experience and in that of many around me....
MT
Goju
Wing Chun
Brazilian JuJitsu
Sambo
Shindenkan
Shotokan
Chinese Kenpo
Strong Tiger Kung Fu |
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Mart
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 373
Styles: Thai Boxing 6 years
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 4:38 am Post subject: |
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I agree with most of what you said but would add that Most karate was not desinged to fight with. It a disciple. Jui jitsu was broken up into Judo Aikido and Karate for western consumption.
MT trains as hard as KK and probably harder. KK fighters beating MT is rare but does happen.
I have alot of respect for KK but the MT guys win 99% of the time and thats the truth.
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Mart
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 373
Styles: Thai Boxing 6 years
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Drunken Monkey
Black Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3559
Location: bar italia
Styles: white chocolate profiteroles and natas....
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:20 am Post subject: |
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y'know, just like to point out that the idea of 'borrowed energy' is one that features heavily in wing chun....
hmmm, boxer rebellion..... hmmm, the mind wanders....
and i have to say, i wasn't aware of the chinese influence on omaya.
man, there is so much i do not know....
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post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are.
"When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." |
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Mart
Green Belt
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 373
Styles: Thai Boxing 6 years
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:29 am Post subject: |
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yes, i am learning about crop irrigation as we speak.
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Gumbi
Blue Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 346
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:38 am Post subject: |
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"That being said, I also learned that I prefer the reality and harshness that only in Kyokushin I have found. Kyokushin means "Ultimate Truth" and that is what we strive for. No, we are not allowed to punch to the head in a bout, but then again I think most are thankful for that fact. If we are devestating without the hand strikes to the head, it is only better that we don't cross into that realm. Well, in the dojo atleast. Do we have a better understanding now? It is, what it is.
Think about what happens if Kyokushin fighters are allowed to fight MT guys under their rules, but without the gloves. We don't use gloves because we don't head hunt. If they take off the gloves and fight by our rules and we are allowed to strike the head as they did in the days of Oyama in Japan and Korea, there is no competition."
I dont think that because one is devestating without strikes to the head that one would be even more so with strikes to the head. You fight like you train, you train for what you compete in. Because of the competition rules in KK, there is no need to learn boxing techniques and parries and such. I think where KK defeats all other styles of karate is because their competitions are full contact and they allow leg kicks, whereas most other karate styles do not.
I also feel that fighting without gloves would favor the muay thai fighter- the clinch work they have is the best in the world (for strikers) and they can be rather punishing with their knees. It would be drastically easier to get that clinch due do your fingers being free from gloves.
As mart mentioned, KK guys can beat Muay Thai guys, but its extremely rare. That being said, if I could train in KK, I would, but my first choices would be Muay Thai and boxing. |
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delta1
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 1780
Location: North Central Washington
Styles: It's ALL Kenpo! Bring it back to base!
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Kyokushin vs Other Karate Styles. Cold Hard Facts!!!!! |
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| Profacci wrote: |
| Kyokushin emphasizes (overly sometimes) a harsh training regimen that consists of primarily hard basics for warm ups, hard full speed drills, severe emphasis on technique and the physics behind them, full contact sparring at low speed for technique and high speed for ring experience, body conditioning for impact absorbtion, Sanchin for endurance and mental toughness and Kata. |
I've trained with schools in several systems, including Kenpo (mybase), that train this way. You're saying you train tougher, or more rigorously than other schools? Maybe, I'm not familiar with Kyokushin. But I have my doubts about that in some of my experiences. Same for the next set of claims (which I won't repost), with the exception of wearing pads. Add to that I've worked with groups that did weekly full contact stick fighting, sometimes going live stick, and with only head and hand protection. You aren't the only ones that train hard. I'm glad to hear you do,and that you enjoy it. But you assume a lot here concerning howothers train, even if you did work with other schools.
| Quote: |
| Having explained a bit about the "Art" of Kyokushin I can now tell you why it differs from "Traditional" Karate. Most other systems (with the exception of MT and Goju) train for sport and do not for the most part require a strict and harsh training regimen. Most sytems tend to teach for the art and preach the importance of not having to use force to deal with force. |
There are a lot of valid reasons to take martial arts, and sport is one of them. So is fitnes, self improvement, or just simple curiosity. Everyone doesn't train for the same reasons as you or me. What's the problem with that? I'll tell you something else about hard training, there will come a time when you can't train as hard. It is a bitter pill to swallow, but you just might learn to appreciate some of the other reasons more. My only problem is when a school tells its students that the point sparing or just learning the bunkai without working it will prepare you for a reality situation. Same goes for Muay Thai and Kyokushin, if all you train for is the ring. There are no bells or referees on 'the street', and assaults tend to come without warning from in close, or with weapons, or friends, ... . If you are training these scenarios, congratulations. If not, you're kidding yourself as much as the sport guys you disdain. And I've been tagged by the sport guys a few times, and with some of those moves that don't work- like high kicks to the head. They don't work reliably, until you take it for granted they don't. Ask my dentist- they can be effective.
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| Think about what happens if Kyokushin fighters are allowed to fight MT guys under their rules... |
Let's look at it this way: think about 5 fights. Possible score at the end- 4 better fighters and one poorer fighter left standing. Anything can happen, your training only gives you a better chance than the guy that trains less. There are no guarantees, we only try to stack the odds in our favor.
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Freedom isn't free! |
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Lazy Scholar
Yellow Belt
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 98
Location: Southern Cal
Styles: did wushu / aikido , doing JKD
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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well said delta.
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you scythe with it!!!!!! |
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turonaga
Orange Belt
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 121
Styles: gensei ryu karatejutsu
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: |
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I am inspired with karatekas who really cherish their style. just sad kyokushin karate practitioners are far from my place i haven't had the oppurtunity and distinct honor and pleasure to play with a kyokushin personally.
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why did we surrender lord? |
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shotokanwarrior
Green Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2003
Posts: 363
Location: calif
Styles: Self Defense
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's be honest folks. I appreciate all the replies to this subject, but I am getting nothing more than opinions in favor of the style that the reply-e practices.
Kyokushin is a Fighting Art more than a Martial Art, and to those who understand the difference the following will be easy to follow.
I have trained in other styles of Karate in the past just to get a feel for the other variations that are out there, and to better understand them from experience and not from a Forum conversation. These include Shotokan, Kenpo, Shindenkan, and Goju.
I will be the first to admit that all of the forementioned styles I gained respect for. They all had similar Kata, had similar if not identical kicks, punches, throws, sweeps etc. The one thing that seperated us from them was not what we trained in, rather how we trained. Kyokushin emphasizes (overly sometimes) a harsh training regimen that consists of primarily hard basics for warm ups, hard full speed drills, severe emphasis on technique and the physics behind them, full contact sparring at low speed for technique and high speed for ring experience, body conditioning for impact absorbtion, Sanchin for endurance and mental toughness and Kata. At no time are pads of any kind allowed for multiple reasons. Punching (both closed fist and open hand to the face and body) kicking, and throwing are the focal points!! Yet, we do in fact train in multiple grappling and manipulation aspects. While they are not the STRONG POINTS of Kyokushin, they ARE part of the training and have been so long as I know of. YES we do use elbows, knees and just about anything that can be projected from the body. Kyokushin does allow any and all kicks and knees to the head, as well as any desired hand or leg technique to the body. The point of a Kyokushin match is to quickly, effectively, and unquestionably knock out the opponent. Not to score points and go on for rounds. Having explained a bit about the "Art" of Kyokushin I can now tell you why it differs from "Traditional" Karate. Most other systems (with the exception of MT and Goju) train for sport and do not for the most part require a strict and harsh training regimen. Most sytems tend to teach for the art and preach the importance of not having to use force to deal with force. I spent many months training with these systems learning their techniques and although I got to understand many techniques in depth, we were not allowed to put them to use. We were just "told" that they would work. I think most of you will agree thatin order to know what works for an individual, you must learn, practice, and put to practical use each and every technique to better understand what works for you. No 2 people can assume that they can both use a technique effectively and in the same situation seeing that they are both different and will react differently. I really did appreciate what I learned from these other guys and I respect them tremendously.
That being said, I also learned that I prefer the reality and harshness that only in Kyokushin I have found. Kyokushin means "Ultimate Truth" and that is what we strive for. No, we are not allowed to punch to the head in a bout, but then again I think most are thankful for that fact. If we are devestating without the hand strikes to the head, it is only better that we don't cross into that realm. Well, in the dojo atleast. Do we have a better understanding now? It is, what it is.
Think about what happens if Kyokushin fighters are allowed to fight MT guys under their rules, but without the gloves. We don't use gloves because we don't head hunt. If they take off the gloves and fight by our rules and we are allowed to strike the head as they did in the days of Oyama in Japan and Korea, there is no competition. 5 Kyokushin top fighters vs 5 MT top fighters and the result was KK4 MT1. Then again the rules have changed. Gee, how convenient. I respect all styles, but lean towards those in our realm. The Fighting Arts!! I just don't like seeing true Martial Artist beeing mislead by your run of the mill corner dojo that just wants to claim a stake in their city's black belt production line. You know what I mean. Now, Any Comments folks?
By the way, My true respect to the following arts as they have so much to offer for their students in my experience and in that of many around me.... |
These are hardly Facts, just opinions.
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Where Art ends, nature begins. |
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on the post.
