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CredoTe
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 776
Location: Ohio, USA
Styles: Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu), Hung Gar (Hung Siu Lum)

PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harkon72 wrote:
This whole thread is very strange to me. Having to register yourself as a "Lethal Weapon" and giving a warning to an attacker of your training in Martial Arts sounds totally ridiculous!
If someone attacks me or my loved ones they will never know of my training, the only evidence they will have is that I could defend myself. There would be no time for conversation, the technique would land before they made their attack once I knew of their intent. In the UK, giving warnings and registering legally is a myth and a joke. We would laugh if someone expected this of us. For example, my Father was a bare knuckle boxer in his youth and a member of the British Special Forces; would he have to give three warnings to an attacker? No way! He would drop them with no further entertainment of protocol. And this matter of registering your skill with the police? I'm sorry, I thought it was a joke.


Great post...100% concur!
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FighterForLife
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 28

Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been pointed out, the whole "register your hands" bit is a myth. As for the larger point of whether you'll have a harder legal time, I certainly think that your training will be under scrutiny.

I am no lawyer, but I have always, in my mind, rehearsed running the heck away from the scene if I have laid someone out. If you aren't there, and witnesses can't give but a general account of the situation and your description then odds are better you wont be arrested and land in court.

And as for leaving the scene of a crime, it is easily justifiable that you were terrified for your life and didnt know how many friends that guy had just waiting to pound you into dirt.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27870
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FighterForLife wrote:
As has been pointed out, the whole "register your hands" bit is a myth. As for the larger point of whether you'll have a harder legal time, I certainly think that your training will be under scrutiny.

I am no lawyer, but I have always, in my mind, rehearsed running the heck away from the scene if I have laid someone out. If you aren't there, and witnesses can't give but a general account of the situation and your description then odds are better you wont be arrested and land in court.

And as for leaving the scene of a crime, it is easily justifiable that you were terrified for your life and didnt know how many friends that guy had just waiting to pound you into dirt.


I agree that getting to safety is very important after an altercation. I'd even go as far as to making sure to call the incident in to law enforcement yourself, once you feel safe. Depending on where you live and how many people know you, fleeing without being identified might not be a viable option. By calling it in first, I think it makes you look better.

Its also important to know when to stop when it comes to defending yourself. There is a line that can be crossed from self-defense into battery, and you don't want to cross that line. A valuable tool instructors can give students is the experience of being able to explain your actions after they happen.
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2207
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is definitely a line that you can easily cross when defending yourself.

More often than not that you can easily ease tension before any violence occurs. Otherwise if violence does occur i've noticed that you should do enough to stop the aggressor but not enough to full on injure them. But if they attack me say with a knife i'll defend myself equal to the damage that they could deliver to me.

I usually restrain and stop them in their tracks before they do more than they regret.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 27870
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something to keep in mind is that if a case you are involved in goes to court, and the defense attorney finds out you have Martial Arts training (and any attorney worth his salt will find this out), then you can almost guarantee that the idea that you are "held to a higher standard" than the layperson in self-defense will come out. So be prepared to deal with this.
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
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Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2207
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and you will have to prove that you took appropriate measures to try and prevent any escalation from words to violence (if they started talking prior to the violence).

If violence straight away that you didn't use excessive force to stop them
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BlackKnight
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 42

Styles: Chibana-ha ShorinRyu

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Legal problems due to belt rank? Reply with quote

joesteph wrote:
I received my copy of The Little Black Book of Violence by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder today, and am on "Section One: Before Violence Occurs."

On p. 72, there's a story of how Wilder de-escalated a situation, so there was no fight. This was brought up by the authors:

Win or lose, if it came to physical blows, Wilder would have been in serious trouble.

If he beat the other guy down, the fact that Wilder was a black belt would undoubtedly have come out in court, dramatically increasing the odds that he would lose a criminal and/or civil trial.


Do you know someone with a black belt who had to use self-defense, and the belt was focused on in court? Perhaps something was made of it to his/her detriment?

Do you know someone who has/had a brown or (as in my art) red belt, viewed as someone approaching black, and it was brought out in court as above?

I see you're from New Jersey.
I am a law enforcement officer in Passaic County and I as of yet have not heard of martial arts training or rank being brought up in court, not at least in this state.
What you do see come up is a law enforcement officer's training especially when it comes to cases where the use of force is the focus of the case.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14520
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nidan Melbourne wrote:
and you will have to prove that you took appropriate measures to try and prevent any escalation from words to violence (if they started talking prior to the violence).

If violence straight away that you didn't use excessive force to stop them

A lot of gray and fine lines to be concerned with, and who's the final say as to what line is what? The court, and the court alone!!


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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Legal problems due to belt rank? Reply with quote

BlackKnight wrote:
joesteph wrote:
I received my copy of The Little Black Book of Violence by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder today, and am on "Section One: Before Violence Occurs."

On p. 72, there's a story of how Wilder de-escalated a situation, so there was no fight. This was brought up by the authors:

Win or lose, if it came to physical blows, Wilder would have been in serious trouble.

If he beat the other guy down, the fact that Wilder was a black belt would undoubtedly have come out in court, dramatically increasing the odds that he would lose a criminal and/or civil trial.


Do you know someone with a black belt who had to use self-defense, and the belt was focused on in court? Perhaps something was made of it to his/her detriment?

Do you know someone who has/had a brown or (as in my art) red belt, viewed as someone approaching black, and it was brought out in court as above?

I see you're from New Jersey.
I am a law enforcement officer in Passaic County and I as of yet have not heard of martial arts training or rank being brought up in court, not at least in this state.
What you do see come up is a law enforcement officer's training especially when it comes to cases where the use of force is the focus of the case.

Solid post!!



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derekdadude
White Belt
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Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 12


PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, lots of of great information here guys!
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