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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lost and/or forgotten can be troublesome in one degree or another. Name changes, methodology changes, and ideology changes can become the root and cause and evil behind their splintering's.

Whatever causes a MA style to become lost and/or forgotten can't always be understood and/or known...not all of the times. Sad, glad, or happy of the demise can be quite bothersome to some, and not so with others. I'm of the latter because there's nothing I can do about it.

With Shindokan's closing of the SKKA, and being splintered like a tatter and old piece of wood, its original history remains in tact, yet the new history will be written by many viewpoints that will cloud Shindokan's history. Of us that are considered the keepers of its archives and the like will do whatever so that it's not lost/forgotten, but the odds don't seem to favor the odds.

That's why it's up to the Student Body to keep the Shindokan flame burning bright as long as it can. but time will tell. Sometimes change isn't always a good thing, especially when the Student Body was the innocent victims of the unforeseen demise.

So sad. I've far much more to say on this topic, but our own sad history is more than I wish to remember, for at least for now.




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Himokiri Karate
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Lost and/or forgotten can be troublesome in one degree or another. Name changes, methodology changes, and ideology changes can become the root and cause and evil behind their splintering's.

Whatever causes a MA style to become lost and/or forgotten can't always be understood and/or known...not all of the times. Sad, glad, or happy of the demise can be quite bothersome to some, and not so with others. I'm of the latter because there's nothing I can do about it.

With Shindokan's closing of the SKKA, and being splintered like a tatter and old piece of wood, its original history remains in tact, yet the new history will be written by many viewpoints that will cloud Shindokan's history. Of us that are considered the keepers of its archives and the like will do whatever so that it's not lost/forgotten, but the odds don't seem to favor the odds.

That's why it's up to the Student Body to keep the Shindokan flame burning bright as long as it can. but time will tell. Sometimes change isn't always a good thing, especially when the Student Body was the innocent victims of the unforeseen demise.

So sad. I've far much more to say on this topic, but our own sad history is more than I wish to remember, for at least for now.





In my town there is style called Shidokan. I realize its very similar name but not the same. But tell me about your styles origin. I actually love to hear about more unknown styles and how they came to be and not just who came with it but what series of events took place that gave birth to the philosophy of your school.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In my town there is style called Shidokan. I realize its very similar name but not the same. But tell me about your styles origin. I actually love to hear about more unknown styles and how they came to be and not just who came with it but what series of events took place that gave birth to the philosophy of your school.


In a nutshell...

1950|Shindokan Saitou-ryu; founded by Fuyuhiko Saitou, Soke, Judan
1956|Soke, and his student, Yoshinobu Takahashi, Godan, move to the USA from Nanjo, Okinawa
1957|Shindokan Hombu established in Canoga Park, CA
*Soke forms Shindokan’s governing body; Shindokan Karate and Kobudo Association (SKKA)
*Yoshinobu Takahashi Sensei is selected by Soke to be Kaicho[President] of the Shindokan Hombu

Choshu Saitou (1865 - 1962) (Okinawa-te*) (This is the father of Soke Saitou) (*Choshu Saitou's Okinawa-te Instructor is unknown)

Fuyuhiko Saitou (1917 - 2008) (Shindokan** founder; Shindokan was founded in 1950.) (**His instructors were, his father, Choshu Saitou, this is the Okinawa-te side of Shindokan, and Shigekazu Ishikawa, this is the Shuri-te side of Shindokan)

Shindokan was birthed/founded in the village of Tamagusuku located in the Shimajiri District, and as part of a merge in 2006, that area is now known as the city of Nanjo.

Soke's life and MA experiences provided for the groundings of Shindokan's methodology, ideology, as well as its philosophies can be credit to his father, I suppose. After all, his father was his primary MA instructor and quite a lot of influences and directions from his father.



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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1871

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the karate styles known and practised outside of their area of origin can be traced back to Okinawans and Japanese teaching their styles abroad or their students teaching it after returning to their countries. Mostly American military men for the Okinawan styles.

We must also consider that the available recorded information on older karate styles is quite lacking, and of what has been written down or recorded in some way has never been translated. The are, however two well known and recommendable authors for sources of history and research into the different styles. Look for any publications by Mark Bishop or Patrick McCarthy.
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Himokiri Karate
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Quote:
In my town there is style called Shidokan. I realize its very similar name but not the same. But tell me about your styles origin. I actually love to hear about more unknown styles and how they came to be and not just who came with it but what series of events took place that gave birth to the philosophy of your school.


In a nutshell...

1950|Shindokan Saitou-ryu; founded by Fuyuhiko Saitou, Soke, Judan
1956|Soke, and his student, Yoshinobu Takahashi, Godan, move to the USA from Nanjo, Okinawa
1957|Shindokan Hombu established in Canoga Park, CA
*Soke forms Shindokan’s governing body; Shindokan Karate and Kobudo Association (SKKA)
*Yoshinobu Takahashi Sensei is selected by Soke to be Kaicho[President] of the Shindokan Hombu

Choshu Saitou (1865 - 1962) (Okinawa-te*) (This is the father of Soke Saitou) (*Choshu Saitou's Okinawa-te Instructor is unknown)

Fuyuhiko Saitou (1917 - 2008) (Shindokan** founder; Shindokan was founded in 1950.) (**His instructors were, his father, Choshu Saitou, this is the Okinawa-te side of Shindokan, and Shigekazu Ishikawa, this is the Shuri-te side of Shindokan)

Shindokan was birthed/founded in the village of Tamagusuku located in the Shimajiri District, and as part of a merge in 2006, that area is now known as the city of Nanjo.

Soke's life and MA experiences provided for the groundings of Shindokan's methodology, ideology, as well as its philosophies can be credit to his father, I suppose. After all, his father was his primary MA instructor and quite a lot of influences and directions from his father.




I love this type of history. To follow up, I have noticed something that I really admire about you and your philosophy. That is "Proof is on the floor"

Is Shindokan in a way similar to Kyokushin? Is it part combat, part life lessons for a better sound of mind?

Are you guys also related to Shidōkan style karate?

There is an old thread I re-read every now and then about Himokiri Karate, you mentioned that its very important for an art to work. You compared it to a life raft, doesn't matter what it said, as long as it saves your life, then that is all that matters.

I have also seen different logos for Shindokan, I want to know much more but no wiki. The only club is in a different province as there is none in my town.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15453
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I love this type of history. To follow up, I have noticed something that I really admire about you and your philosophy. That is "Proof is on the floor"

Thank you, Himokiri Karate. I've lived that staple, Proof is on the floor, for as long as I can remember both in and out of my MA life.

Quote:
Is Shindokan in a way similar to Kyokushin? Is it part combat, part life lessons for a better sound of mind?

Similar in that we both stem from Shuri-te, but not similar because Okinawa-te is an equal part of our core. Shindokan's ideology is of self-improvement, discipline and hard training.

Quote:
Are you guys also related to Shidōkan style karate?

We're not from the same group or type. We're similar in that we are stepped deeply in grappling, numerous locks, sweeps, and throws. Our primary goal is to get behind our opponent in any shape, way, and or form; we're 85% hands and 15% feet, with our kicks targeted waist down.

Quote:
There is an old thread I re-read every now and then about Himokiri Karate, you mentioned that its very important for an art to work. You compared it to a life raft, doesn't matter what it said, as long as it saves your life, then that is all that matters.

If the given MA isn't effective, then there's no since in pursuing it. If I was drowning in the ocean, and I went down twice already, and I was about to go down for the third and finally time, and an inner-tube floated by me, and it saved my life, I'd kiss an inner-tube for the rest of my life. I wouldn't care what that which saved my life is called because it saved my life. Labels are meaningless to me, and the time to not worry about labels is when it saved my life.

Quote:
I have also seen different logos for Shindokan, I want to know much more but no wiki. The only club is in a different province as there is none in my town.

No, there's no wiki on our brand of Shindokan, and that was by design, and wasn't a mistake. Soke's mindset was that if you want to learn Shindokan, then one needed to train in Shindokan. We never had a website, even though in our later history we fought tooth and nail to get Soke and Dai-Soke to change their minds, but that was to no avail. Stubborn to their core!!

There's Aikido Shindokan, Shindokan Budo, and so on and so forth. None of these are Shindokan Saitou-ryu whatsoever...none of them. Their shingle might read Shindokan, and that's fine, and that's where the similarities end. I've seen a Shindokan Karate Dojo before, but it's a Shotokan dojo. See what I mean by labels an how they can't be judge by them.



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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1871

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two styles called shidōkan that usually one up in searches online. One is Okinawan and is basically traced to Miyahira Katsuya and his successors. Miyahira had many students and never really designated a single one as sole inheritor of his teachings, which are basically exactly what he learned from Chibana who taught exactly what his only teacher, Matsumura Sôkon taught.

The other is a type of Japanese knock-down fulll contact organization similar to and possibly related to kyokushin kai or one of the many out shoots that came up after Oyama´s passing in the mid 90’s.
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 31

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like maybe a good place to make my first post and say hello (HELLO!).

For all practical points and purposes, the Kingai-ryu of Matayoshi Shinpo is all but dead with his passing. Supposedly, he only passed this family art along to a couple of people and it is not being taught publicly. To make matters worse, Matayoshi Sensei said that all of his public demonstrations of Kingai-ryu were never "the real thing" to keep people from trying to learn it that way.

Kojo-ryu is another art that is really all but dead. Hayashi Shingo Sensei seems to have a legitimate claim to having learned at least some of the original family art as does Yabiku Takaya Sensei, but I do believe Yabiku Sensei passed away. Also, I don't really know the true level of Kojo-ryu knowledge either of these gentlemen actually had...especially since the Kojo family quit teaching it and has asked anyone and everyone using the family name to stop doing so and call what they are doing something else.

You could probably put Motobu-ryu (Motobu Udundi) into the same boat more or less, especially after the passing of Uehara Seikichi Sensei. Plus, as the 3rd son, Motobu Choki Sensei was never really taught the family art (although it has been said that he may have learned some of it from his brother).

Lastly, I way say (my opinion, your mileage may vary) that the indigenous te or udun-di that people such as Chikudun Pechin Matsumura Sokon learned and used prior to the integration of Chinese quanfa has all but died out. Bits and pieces can probably be found here and there, but changed very much from what the original art was.

Anyway, just some first post ramblings and thoughts.
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ashworth
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 571
Location: UK
Styles: Kankoko No Ryu, shotokan, IJR Karate, Iaido, Kobudo

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum tatsujin! and what a post for your first one! I'll be looking forward to your contributions on the forum!
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 31

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashworth wrote:
Welcome to the forum tatsujin! and what a post for your first one! I'll be looking forward to your contributions on the forum!


Ashley:

Thank you very much for the warm welcome and kind words. They are very much appreciated!

One of the great things about being old and having been around for so long is that you get to meet lots of interesting folks and pick up alot of (sometimes seemingly useless) information. I look forward to being able to share where I can.

Thank you again.
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For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously.
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