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Himokiri Karate
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject: Lost Karate styles? Reply with quote

I know that Pangai Noon is extinct but in a way lives on in Uechi-ryu karate. Also many Kung Fu styles met their demise traditionally whenever there was a fall of a dynasty. This is to an extent applies to jujitsu which there are so many styles through out and some did not make the historic cut.

This brings us to Karate, I have heard some styles of karate did not make it. Not because it was suppressed or anything but rather the training may have been daunting, boring or overall it lacked the student body.

The inspiration of this thread is you guessed it, Himokiri karate, now in the series, its considered a "tragic style" because its too dangerous for sparring due to finger and toe attacks. Anyways not to go off topic but my question is, has there been a style of karate that became extinct?
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Zaine
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we think of it no, not really. Rather, the styles evolved into different things. We might find that no one studies Naha-te as it was anymore, but we know that from Naha-te we get Goju-Ryu. Is Naha-te extinct? Or did it simply evolve and take on different names? I am inclined to say the latter. (This is not to say that Naha-te isn't still practiced, just that, if so, it's uncommon at best).

I would venture to say the same for kung-fu as well. Yes, dynastic traditions of Martial Arts fell off, but I have to imagine that they lived on in one way or another. Humans are really good at taking what is good and running with it (sometimes far past its use). Martial Arts is the same way. Maybe we don't see this "original karates" in name but their techniques and legacies (and lineages, for that matter) live on through the systems that picked them up.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure that whole styles were lost, but I'm sure there were great teachers with their own methods and outlooks on training that were lost at the end of WWII.
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Himokiri Karate
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
As we think of it no, not really. Rather, the styles evolved into different things. We might find that no one studies Naha-te as it was anymore, but we know that from Naha-te we get Goju-Ryu. Is Naha-te extinct? Or did it simply evolve and take on different names? I am inclined to say the latter. (This is not to say that Naha-te isn't still practiced, just that, if so, it's uncommon at best).

I would venture to say the same for kung-fu as well. Yes, dynastic traditions of Martial Arts fell off, but I have to imagine that they lived on in one way or another. Humans are really good at taking what is good and running with it (sometimes far past its use). Martial Arts is the same way. Maybe we don't see this "original karates" in name but their techniques and legacies (and lineages, for that matter) live on through the systems that picked them up.


I always wondered if there was a school or style of karate that did not make it to modern times. I know that we have main styles and there are family styles that are more local and not nation wide.
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Zaine
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not be surprised to learn that there was some system of combat that came, or still comes, from an uncontacted tribe or maybe an island nation that didn't get out and for some reason no longer exists.
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Miick 11
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 58


PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Lost Karate styles? Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
I know that Pangai Noon is extinct but in a way lives on in Uechi-ryu karate. Also many Kung Fu styles met their demise traditionally whenever there was a fall of a dynasty. This is to an extent applies to jujitsu which there are so many styles through out and some did not make the historic cut.

This brings us to Karate, I have heard some styles of karate did not make it. Not because it was suppressed or anything but rather the training may have been daunting, boring or overall it lacked the student body.

The inspiration of this thread is you guessed it, Himokiri karate, now in the series, its considered a "tragic style" because its too dangerous for sparring due to finger and toe attacks. Anyways not to go off topic but my question is, has there been a style of karate that became extinct?


Yes. The one I do is pretty much extinct . Nowadays ( karate ) people don't even seem to know what I am talking about ( this type of karate )
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
As we think of it no, not really. Rather, the styles evolved into different things. We might find that no one studies Naha-te as it was anymore, but we know that from Naha-te we get Goju-Ryu. Is Naha-te extinct? Or did it simply evolve and take on different names? I am inclined to say the latter. (This is not to say that Naha-te isn't still practiced, just that, if so, it's uncommon at best).

I would venture to say the same for kung-fu as well. Yes, dynastic traditions of Martial Arts fell off, but I have to imagine that they lived on in one way or another. Humans are really good at taking what is good and running with it (sometimes far past its use). Martial Arts is the same way. Maybe we don't see this "original karates" in name but their techniques and legacies (and lineages, for that matter) live on through the systems that picked them up.


Isotu changed the whole basic and ideas about karate , I dnt see that as a development or transition to an existing form of it . The old type of karate, pre itosu's changes is virtually extinct .

But I suppose for some it is a thin line between extinct and transformation , I do however note Hohan Soken's comment on viewing it for the first time ( he left Okinawa for Argentina before the changes and came back afterwards ) ; " What is that people are doing ?"

He had to be informed that ot was karate !

One of the most famous senior and renown karate masters of last century didnt recognize it as karate ? I think that indicates a great change , not a mere 'development ' .
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Miick 11
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
I'm not sure that whole styles were lost, but I'm sure there were great teachers with their own methods and outlooks on training that were lost at the end of WWII.


And most certainly DURING it, especially the initial invasion of Okinawa ... MANY teachers where killed , and family and traditions wiped out .
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Miick 11
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
I would not be surprised to learn that there was some system of combat that came, or still comes, from an uncontacted tribe or maybe an island nation that didn't get out and for some reason no longer exists.


I am not sure where such a place might be . By now they probably got mobile phones and watching Bruce Lee on youtube .

Or, you could learn first hand by attempting to land on North Sentinal Island

One of their 'arts ' is to fire , virtually a spear , from a huge bow . One got an anthropologist through the chest as he attempted to land on the island . Someone left a pig on the beach for them to eat , but they speared it and threw it back in the ocean . Someone left doll for kids to play with , but they speared that and threw it back in the ocean .

I guess the martial art that has preserved their culture for so long is

if it is not from here , and it isnt a fish or a coconut , spear it and throw it back in the ocean .
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1783
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

North Sentinel Island and its inhabitants, the Sentinelese, are exactly who I am thinking of. I'd love to learn the way of launching a spear from a huge bow. I'm sure I could suss it out on my own. I think I would prefer that over trying to find a authentic teaching experience.
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