Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Internal Arts and Philosophy
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14289
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Oh, that's cheating Alan...using Chess to peak up my interest...effective move!!

I do see the similarities between Chess and I Ching. In Chess, controlling the 4 center squares, especially in the opening and mid-game, is key to overcoming an opponent. Put knowing the when and where to relinquish the center for the end game, is key towards Checkmate!!

I'll also do the additional homework, but please don't overwhelm me with a lot of homework because I HATE HOMEWORK!!


Yes, using Chess was a good tactic.

Was once invited to a chess club, while there of course played chess with this guy, that I never knew.

I won the first game, he was upset, won the second game, he became even more upset, won the third game, he broke in to a fit of anger and stormed off.

I thought this situation might get violent, I asked the friend that invited me there "who is that guy?"

He replied "He is the club chess champion"

The chess champ returned to play more chess with me, this time armed with a tournament stop clock, something I have never used.

We played again using the stop clock and he won, how happy he became, as he regained his pride and honor, for me it was no big deal to win or lose.

Playing chess as a martial artist was something this chess champ player hadn't had much experience with, as I learned and gained from him how to fight with the element of time.

This chess lesson became very useful when sparring in the dojo, by combining not only martial art experience but also using the element of time against the opponent.

Here is video especially chosen, for those that seriously hate homework.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LaULzIYPZf8

Excellent story, Alan!! Defeat and conquer...adapt or die...use whatever benefits the victory!!



_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2131


PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Oh, that's cheating Alan...using Chess to peak up my interest...effective move!!

I do see the similarities between Chess and I Ching. In Chess, controlling the 4 center squares, especially in the opening and mid-game, is key to overcoming an opponent. Put knowing the when and where to relinquish the center for the end game, is key towards Checkmate!!

I'll also do the additional homework, but please don't overwhelm me with a lot of homework because I HATE HOMEWORK!!


Yes, using Chess was a good tactic.

Was once invited to a chess club, while there of course played chess with this guy, that I never knew.

I won the first game, he was upset, won the second game, he became even more upset, won the third game, he broke in to a fit of anger and stormed off.

I thought this situation might get violent, I asked the friend that invited me there "who is that guy?"

He replied "He is the club chess champion"

The chess champ returned to play more chess with me, this time armed with a tournament stop clock, something I have never used.

We played again using the stop clock and he won, how happy he became, as he regained his pride and honor, for me it was no big deal to win or lose.

Playing chess as a martial artist was something this chess champ player hadn't had much experience with, as I learned and gained from him how to fight with the element of time.

This chess lesson became very useful when sparring in the dojo, by combining not only martial art experience but also using the element of time against the opponent.

Here is video especially chosen, for those that seriously hate homework.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LaULzIYPZf8

Excellent story, Alan!! Defeat and conquer...adapt or die...use whatever benefits the victory!!


Thank you snsei8.

As an artist, patience was my virtue against the chess club champ, he being impatient in the beginning games, while my simple strategy was to play carefully and capitaliz on his mistakes, if any.

Adding the stop clocks was a good strategy on his part, as the element of time is very crucial in any type of war or conflict, be it a game or real.

As with chess and I Ching, the element of time also implies change.

As I Ching the book of changes, also considers, cycles, patterns and relationships, that are all in flux.

Kings and Queens in chess, conquests and the like, I Ching is also rich in metaphors, that already exist in the world.

Also look at how a Queen in chess can be transformed from a pawn, in to a Queen in real life; such as the Queen of Spain, today, was once a TV reporter.

Or look at "The King of Pop" died poor and from drugs, a sad ending to a brilliant carrier; where in the I Ching it warns and advises, in other words about, what goes up must come down.

The wisdom and guidance in the I Ching is overwhelmingly great, as to ignore it, is an act of ignorance and arrogance IMHO

Also living out of a book isn't right either, for me however, personally, without having a stable father figure, for me, I Ching is next best thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6125
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Am I interested? Maybe! Having a slight understanding of I Ching, and all, I'd be curious as to how it would be utilized in any way in the MA. However, be warned...I'll lose interest if it takes a turn down a dark alley some how and someway!!



I'm not sure how it can be used per se but it definitely influenced Oriental culture and is a fundamental text for Taoism and Confucianism. Styles which developed in China such as Tai Chi or Baguazhang are heavily influenced but you can also see some minor influence in Japanese or Korean arts, mostly in their ways of thinking.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2131


PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Am I interested? Maybe! Having a slight understanding of I Ching, and all, I'd be curious as to how it would be utilized in any way in the MA. However, be warned...I'll lose interest if it takes a turn down a dark alley some how and someway!!



I'm not sure how it can be used per se but it definitely influenced Oriental culture and is a fundamental text for Taoism and Confucianism. Styles which developed in China such as Tai Chi or Baguazhang are heavily influenced but you can also see some minor influence in Japanese or Korean arts, mostly in their ways of thinking.
DWx as martial artists, this implies some kind of finesse with this person and not a savage brute type.

Fighting artists that train and learn the art for the right reasons and not to become bruteish bullies or spiteful disrespectful individuals.

I Ching is a path on which becoming a wise person is encouraged.

In the past it was the sages now the scientists, we have the best of both worlds today.

Art seems to favor the number eight so does Bagua with other arts:

For music: Do Ra Me Fa So La Ti Do

For painting:
Primary colors: Yellow Blue Red
Secondary colors: Purple Green Orange
Also: Black White

The Bagua octagon is also the same shape as a compass and all of its directions.

Including the four seasons and just like the secondary colors, the season in between, make up the other four; not forgetting the Yin Yang summer and winter solstice's.

I Ching the book of changes can benefit all martial artists, as it involves cultivating the mind and body, by understanding the compliments and contrasts in all things and situations including ourselves.

My personal contribution is by using a person's birthday and matching it to a trigram that corresponds with the odds and evens, as earlier stated, and take it from there.

I've done this for many people in my past, just for fun mind you, with family, friends, work colleagues and at parties, with a very enthusiastic response.

I have never been involved or interested in any type of astrology, as this implies looking in to the future, as I am always interested in the here and now.

What the I Ching does, is make connections to things, so they can continue flowing in a favorable peaceful natural way.

By using everday metaphors, for instance the relationship between a person that is a "Mountain" element and a "Fire" element, then this could be a way to understand that, this relationship is like a "Volcano" in nature, therefore forwarned is forearmed, and take it easy...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6125
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
DWx wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Am I interested? Maybe! Having a slight understanding of I Ching, and all, I'd be curious as to how it would be utilized in any way in the MA. However, be warned...I'll lose interest if it takes a turn down a dark alley some how and someway!!



I'm not sure how it can be used per se but it definitely influenced Oriental culture and is a fundamental text for Taoism and Confucianism. Styles which developed in China such as Tai Chi or Baguazhang are heavily influenced but you can also see some minor influence in Japanese or Korean arts, mostly in their ways of thinking.
DWx as martial artists, this implies some kind of finesse with this person and not a savage brute type.

Fighting artists that train and learn the art for the right reasons and not to become bruteish bullies or spiteful disrespectful individuals.

I Ching is a path on which becoming a wise person is encouraged.

Depends whether you train Jutsu (術) or Do (道).

Though on the whole I agree with you as far as my personal training is concerned. In the words of Funakoshi:

“The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory nor defeat, but in the perfection of the character of its participants ”
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2131


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having clear thoughts and intentions makes everything we do as a martial artist far more effective than not.

The I Ching helps accomplish this, by providing a comprehensive range of clues or pointers to guide us into informed natural matters, that makes sense, out of often times when things look like chaos.

The beauty of I Ching is unclogging thoughts that are stuck for one reason or another, in the literary world it is called writers block.

Just as this forum can help those that get stuck on certain aspects of martial arts, so can the I Ching with the constant reminder of change and time in nature.

We are also a part of nature as connected and interrelated as everything else is, without exception.

The I Ching promotes making wise decisions for peace and harmony and how to live in harmony with oneself and with their surroundings.

As the I Ching is still very new in the Western world compared to the East, the understanding of it is still very skeptical.

Yet when great thinkers take an interest in the I Ching, they become astonished and inspired from any subject matter, from mathematics to psychology and the list goes on.

http://chungfumartialarts.com/dna-and-the-i-ching/

We still do not know how the human brain works completely, perhaps studying the I Ching will spark the imagination of how we do what we do with more clarity, than we do now.

We in the West have gained alot from the ancient orient with martial arts, all I am doing is taking the next logical step a little further.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2131


PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKD and I Ching

What Taekwondo and the I Ching have in common is that they are both meant to be a way of life. The I Ching is just a book until it is lived by a person who moves and talks and thinks and interacts with other people; Taekwondo poomsae is merely a series of defense moves, not that practical for daily living, until it is imbued with the spiritual and ethical philosophies of its founders.

The I Ching, also known as The Book of Changes, was originally composed by the Taoist sage Fu Hsi and became a cornerstone of Taoism; Confucius later amended it. Taoism and Confucianism were two of the philosophies that the ancient Korean warrior the Hwarang, forerunners of Taekwondo, embraced. I believe its safe to say that here the original connection between the I Ching and Taekwondo was made. But it was centuries later that someone solidified this connection by putting sixteen specific Taekwondo forms, the eight Taeguek forms and the eight Palgwe forms, together with the I Ching’s eight trigrams. Their motives for doing so are clear. They wanted the body and the mind and the spirit to come together and be as complete as the yin/yang philosophy that is at the heart of the I Ching and in turn at the heart of the Korean culture. They wanted each student of Taekwondo to be a living representation of the yin/yang symbol where the negative and positive of everything is represented by two complete halves forming a perfect circle.


So today, each Taeguek and Palgwe poomse has its correlating I Ching symbol. Taeguek Il Jang along with Palgwe Il Jang have Heaven and Light; Taeguek Ee Jang along with Palgwe Ee Jang have Joy and Lake, and so on. As with most things spiritual, we are handed down established interpretations by teachers and sages, then encouraged to have enlightenments of our own. I shall approach the meaning of the I Ching symbols with this in mind.




Il Jang- Heaven and Light




Here is the concept of Pure Yang. It points to the Creative Force that lies behind everything. The actual I Ching interpretation is Sky; to me that suggests openness, perhaps openness to learning and the spontaneous creative process that arises thereof.







Ee Jang - Joy or Lake




Non-aggressive. Serene. Gentle. Spiritually uplifting. This seems to point directly to meditation and the meditative way of life. Our spirit, like water in a lake, reacts to agitation. When left alone, both water and spirit will revert to their natural state, that of serenity, which can also be interpreted as joy.




Sam Jang- Fire and Sun




This suggests great energy, something that is very lively and unpredictable. In contrast the sun by day and a fire at night can be a source of consistent warmth and comfort. It is interesting to note that the forms that coincide with these symbols are very different from each other. Taegeuk Sam Jang contains quick double punches and ends with a complicated series of low blocks, front kicks, and middle punches; whereas Palwge Sam Jang has no kicks, only singular punches, and at times draws on the elementary and therefore comfortable forms of Kicho Il and Kicho Ee.

As for a personal meaning, I think I spot a bit of yin/yang humor here in this sense. That while we aspire to be quiet, calm and peaceful, like a lake or the glowing sun, we must avoid boring those around us. Amidst our tranquility, we must embrace the unpredictability of fire, its vibrancy, its spontaneity. That way we attract life to us, rather than cause life to sit back and yawn.




Sa Jang- Thunder




A storm and the danger it can bring – Thunder gives this a voice. The yin and yang of this of this has to do with courage in the face of danger. Thunder can make a person cringe, and yet by itself it is harmless. The disrupting effect of a kihop is one way of putting an attacker off-balance, but then it must be followed by action. Thunder reminds us to be prepared for action and to be on guard about losing our focus. Courage can be described as a mental and spiritual action, the ideal stance for facing thunder. Courage has the wisdom to know that trials will pass like a thunderstorm.




Oh Jang- Wind




The yin and yang qualities of Wind are obvious. It is sometimes forceful, sometimes gentle; sometimes it pierces through, sometimes it is yielding; sometimes it is destructive and sometimes soothing. I was born in the Nashville region, part of Dixie Alley, the Tornado Alley of the South; I am very aware of the destructive power of wind. Also, the humidity in summer can be overwhelming there, but a gentle breeze can be the ideal answer for it. A poomse flows and if done meditatively, it can have a soothing effect upon the performer and perhaps upon observers; yet its movements are intended for battle situations where one must be destructive in order to prevent destruction to oneself or to others.



Yook Jang - Water




This is the idea of acceptance, flow, and consistency. Even the idea of forgiveness is here, for being unforgiving creates impasses in one’s path. A person must be malleable to life. As it has been said in the dojang, water flows downhill and takes the path of least resistance. Unlike the water of Ee Jang’s lake, this water is moving and meeting obstacles head on and becoming what the situation requires.

A Taekwondoist must accept whatever an attack demands and take the proper shape for defense, while at the same time looking for an opening to flow into with a counter-attack. Poomse done properly must flow and be as pleasing to the eye as the motion of a stream. It has been noted that the consistency of flowing water can in time smooth down the rough edges of rocks and even carve out canyons; a student with a black belt is simple a student with a white belt who has had their rough edges worn away by consistency.




Chil Jang - Mountain




My first inclination is to say that this is about stability, perhaps the stability of knowing one’s own mind or the stability of maintaining a healthy and balanced life. In Taekwondo there is the physical stability of its stances that act as launching pads for all of its moves. There are also the five tenets of Taekwondo that encourage stability in day-to-day life.

However, upon studying I discovered a different meaning. The actual I Ching interpretation is Top Stop. In Master Cook’s book Ancient Wisdom for the Modern Warrior this is described as “the wisdom of knowing when and where to stop, as if one is traveling up a steep mountain.” Coming at it from that angle, I believe this is about setting your own pace, working toward your personal best, reaching for your own goals and not for the goals someone else has set for you.



Pal Jang- Earth




Here is the concept of pure yin. It marks the wholeness of opposites coming together to form perfect balance. Taeguek Pal Jang and Palgwe Pal Jang equal completeness. They are the last forms before obtaining black belt status. Earthrepresents physical creation, the final result of what was begun with Heaven and Light. Earth must be yielding in the creative process in order to be solid in the end.




As a final note I will make the observation that like the I Ching, poomse is best when it is internalized. It is good to think, ‘The I Ching says, therefore I should do’, but it is even better to simply do. When a certain form is in my mind’s memory, I can execute it accurately: but when it is in the memory of my muscles, it frees my mind to go elsewhere, perhaps into those spaces in between thoughts where the act of meditation lies. But a form should never be mechanical: therefore, its philosophy must be absorbed as well. Then instinctively an advanced student performing poomse can have excitement like fire, can flow like water, can express inner joy, can be forceful like the wind, can inspire courage like thunder, can know when to start and stop like a mountain climber, and know when to yield like earth. When I think of the totality of Yin/Yang, from Heaven and Light, the act of creation, to Earth, the creation itself, I realize that a poomse that was created for students is not finished until a student performs it. Only then is it a complete and solid creation. In the same way Traditional Taekwondo is not complete until a student lives it in and out of the dojang. Thanks to the influence of the I Ching students have something to carry away with them, something that will help their daily lives be as balanced as the Yin and Yang symbol is to the eye.

http://chosuntkd.com/2016/02/the-i-ching-and-its-relationship-to-poomse-philosophy/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Internal Arts and Philosophy All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - Staff - User Guidelines >