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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An article of potential interest:

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/24/538294331/female-athletes-are-closing-the-gender-gap-when-it-comes-to-concussions
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
I do not, and will not subscribe to the mindset that women don't have a chance against a man, no matter the venue. To do so, automatically makes women inferior to men!!

That's just the problem. They are inferior when it comes to muscle mass and athletic ability. You can't change biology.

I'm all for championing equal rights and equal opportunities but there is no way an elite female fighter will compete on the same level as an elite man. We can't pretend that MMA is any different from other sports in that experience and tactics count too, they do in every other sport as well. Aside from pure speed or strength contests like weightlifting or running (where women can't compete, as per Lupin1's comment), I still can't think of any contest where women consistently hold their own when going head to head.

It's not the movies where a female MA fighter might call on some mystical higher power to give her strength or outmanoeuvre the jock in some quick thinking.

Like my previous example of Serena Williams. Tennis involves just as much technique, experience and cunning as athletic ability, and yet the Williams sister still couldn't beat the 203 male seed.

And IMHO to tell a female MAist she will have success against men is irresponsible. She might have success against weaker men and might do OK some of the time. But against the vast majority of male attackers, to fight them for a prolonged amount of time drastically increases the female's chance of losing and of getting seriously hurt.

In teaching women MA we are increasing the chance they might survive an encounter, but lets not pretend they will get a KO or submission on the street. The best policy is still for them to cut and run, to do what they have to do to get break, and when they have an opportunity to run like a bat out of hell. An unskilled, athletic guy still has a really good chance of winning in that scenario but at least with some MA training we're giving females a small chance. But in MMA or UFC? You're asking a female to go toe-to-toe for 15 mins+ and now you are no longer just asking her to escape, but to try to KO or submit her opponent. It's not going to happen.

Than, why learn the MA, if one's female, at all, if they've not a snowballs chance against any male attacker/opponent because they believe that they're inferior to males?!?

I'd not want a female student on the floor if they won't believe in themselves, no matter the level of difficulties that might be before them. I BELIEVE IN MY STUDENTS, ALL OF THEM, EVEN IF THEY ARE, AT FIRST, HAVING DIFFICULTY IN BELIEVING IN THEMSELVES!!

I believe that the fault lies within the practitioner and not the style. I'm a firm believer that women have an equal chance against a man, providing that the woman believes in her abilities across the board.

Believe in the style...believe in the instructor...believe in yourself!! The MA is for both women and men to learn an effective style of the MA without any contradictions. If a woman can't effectively defeat a man, then that woman should return her, for example, black belt to her CI, especially if there's not much hope for defeating a male opponent/attacker.

The MA isn't just for show.

Imho!!



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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468


PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martial artist male or female, should be training to fight those bigger, stronger, faster, younger...

To think the opponent will be equal in every respect is highly unlikely.

The alternative is be trained to fight those less worthwhile, smaller, weaker, slower, older...

Then why bother trying to train to be a fighter against individuals that are not much of match for you?

I would rather fight a superior fighter and loose than to fight a pushover and win.

If women or men belive that they are superior or weaker, then the gender equality debate has lost, before it had a chance to become equal.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6443
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:

Than, why learn the MA, if one's female, at all, if they've not a snowballs chance against any male attacker/opponent because they believe that they're inferior to males?!?

I'd not want a female student on the floor if they won't believe in themselves, no matter the level of difficulties that might be before them. I BELIEVE IN MY STUDENTS, ALL OF THEM, EVEN IF THEY ARE, AT FIRST, HAVING DIFFICULTY IN BELIEVING IN THEMSELVES!!

I believe that the fault lies within the practitioner and not the style. I'm a firm believer that women have an equal chance against a man, providing that the woman believes in her abilities across the board.

Believe in the style...believe in the instructor...believe in yourself!! The MA is for both women and men to learn an effective style of the MA without any contradictions. If a woman can't effectively defeat a man, then that woman should return her, for example, black belt to her CI, especially if there's not much hope for defeating a male opponent/attacker.

The MA isn't just for show.

Imho!!




Guess me and Devin better go see our instructors later...

For what it's worth we are talking the elite end of the spectrum here with UFC. Men and female abilities are two overlapping bell curves. Top women have every chance to take out weaker men, but strong women are just at a disadvantage compared to strong men. I don't see why it would be any different in MMA than for other physical contests. Belief or no belief.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so I think the confusion here comes from the misunderstanding about what a professional MMA fight is. The thing to understand is that ANYONE on the UFC roster, male or female, is going to wreck the vast majority of non-professional martial artists out there. And a good chunk of the folks who may be pro's, but aren't really full contact fighters. Any of them. But you are talking about a dominance contest between professional athletes of comparable training and "Weighing in" at the same weight. So there are a couple of factors that are in play here.

1. Men can cut more weight than women. So if they both clear the scale at 145, he is walking in to the octagon/ring about 10 lb's or more heavier than her.

2. Men's muscles and bones can take and recover from more repeated stress injuries than women's. Has to do with bone densities and muscular shape, but it is true. Means he can do more reps in the same amount of time than she can.

3. In general, men have more white muscle fiber than women. This is not a universal, but at the some weight it is consistent enough to count as one for our purposes. This means he will be more explosive than her.

4. Height to weight ratio's will typically favor men, so he will have reach on her, and not a little bit, a LOT of reach.

I could go on in to things like VO/2 max, and cardiac outputs. Neural reflex development. Whatever you want to list. EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY favors men.
Women cannot, on average and at the highest levels, hope to win a straight up, 1v1, FIGHT with a male that is the same weight, training and experience as them. It sucks that this is the reality of violence, but it IS and pretending otherwise would be a worse circus than those underage girls fighting adults in MMA they have in some places.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468


PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
UFC isn't a strength contest, neither is soccer, technique, speed, skills and other factors have a bearing on winning.


Yes, but size and skill is pretty significant. Men are just so much physically stronger than women. The womens abu dhabi or world champion would have a very very difficult time submitting a male blue belt if they were fighting, nevermind anyone else of a higher caliber.

Think about how much difficult top black belts have submitting other guys in their division.... yeah
Mud wrestling, there wasn't much fuss about, gender, size and strength in those places.

Perhaps UFC mud wrestling between genders would be the ultimate compromise.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the differences concerning height and weight differences, and all of that. I don't take those concerns lightly, and I know that they weigh heavy on the minds of many MAist.

An individual who's complete in their totality as a MAists, isn't concerned the slightest whether an opponent is or isn't an elite athlete and the like, just the person that stands before them!!

And if that MAist is even the slightest concerned whether an opponent is an elite athlete or the like then it's very possible that that MAist isn't complete in their totality, therefore, the fights already been lost, before it ever began.

I'm not saying to not adequately prepare themselves for the tasks before you in the Nth degree. That's always a great idea.

What I was taught, and what my knowledge and experience are, weight and height, to me, are inconsequential because, the opponent and myself are MAists, and there's more than one way to skin a cat. After all, if David can defeat Goliath soundly, then so can YOU/I!!



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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I understand the differences concerning height and weight differences, and all of that. I don't take those concerns lightly, and I know that they weigh heavy on the minds of many MAist.

An individual who's complete in their totality as a MAists, isn't concerned the slightest whether an opponent is or isn't an elite athlete and the like, just the person that stands before them!!

And if that MAist is even the slightest concerned whether an opponent is an elite athlete or the like then it's very possible that that MAist isn't complete in their totality, therefore, the fights already been lost, before it ever began.

I'm not saying to not adequately prepare themselves for the tasks before you in the Nth degree. That's always a great idea.

What I was taught, and what my knowledge and experience are, weight and height, to me, are inconsequential because, the opponent and myself are MAists, and there's more than one way to skin a cat. After all, if David can defeat Goliath soundly, then so can YOU/I!!




Yeah, but David had a ranged weapon. I don't think they are gonna let you bring a gun, bow, sling, or crossbow in to the ring/cage with you. If David had been forced to fight hand-to-hand, he would have been killed in short order. Think Oberyn Martell and the Mountain from GOT, if you have ever seen that show. Oberyn was way better and absolutely destroyed the Mountain, until he wasn't and got killed.

Truly, thinking size and strength are irrelevant in a 1on1 fight against a trained fighter with similar experience is not a good path to victory. One can try to prepare for it, but realize that most of the time, if I am enough taller than my opponent that I can post a hand on their head and stop them from reaching me, enough stronger that when they try to take me down I just lift them off their base, and with enough extra endurance that their best shots feel like love taps from my GF, then my opponent is not likely to win.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Male vs Female UFC Fights Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Female UFC fighters, like it or not; they are here to stay.

Eventually with equality and diversity men and women, will be fighting each other in the octagon, in the distant future; it's just a matter of time.

Will you be for or against men and women fighting each other in the octagon?



I don't see this ever happening. I think this is a equality pipe dream.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6443
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
I understand the differences concerning height and weight differences, and all of that. I don't take those concerns lightly, and I know that they weigh heavy on the minds of many MAist.

An individual who's complete in their totality as a MAists, isn't concerned the slightest whether an opponent is or isn't an elite athlete and the like, just the person that stands before them!!

And if that MAist is even the slightest concerned whether an opponent is an elite athlete or the like then it's very possible that that MAist isn't complete in their totality, therefore, the fights already been lost, before it ever began.

I'm not saying to not adequately prepare themselves for the tasks before you in the Nth degree. That's always a great idea.

What I was taught, and what my knowledge and experience are, weight and height, to me, are inconsequential because, the opponent and myself are MAists, and there's more than one way to skin a cat. After all, if David can defeat Goliath soundly, then so can YOU/I!!



So would you step into the ring with the current men's heavyweight Stipe Miocic? Or how about Michael Bisping? Conor McGregor? I'm sure you believe in your own abilities and I don't doubt that you have infinite skill and knowledge, but would that be enough?
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