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mushybees
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 199
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Then why in the world are we instructors teaching/promoting females in our core styles?? Why?? Because it looks good on paper, in some office, somewhere??

Seems to me that no one is giving any female the respect I feel, and believe, that they wholeheartedly deserve/need.

A female with 10...20...30 years on the floor against a male with similar years on the floor, under YOUR guidance, the female practitioner is effectual across the board as the male practitioner under YOUR guidance, as well.

If we instructors don't give our female students any chance against a male student of equal knowledge and experience, then I feel/believe that we should just close the doors of our MA schools.

Why?

What we're teaching is for BOTH GENDERS!! Not for just one...not for our favorite bet...not for this and that. Our floors are full of both female and male students, and while the ratio might have more male than female students, and they EACH equally deserve our most loyal attention to provide them our best.

We, as MA instructors believe in what we're teaching our Student Body, equally, but whenever push comes to shove, the female student is left without any hope and/or comfort in their learned effectiveness, by their own instructor(s).

Imho!!


I would love to believe that resolve and determination is the ultimate leveller in any physical confrontation.
I have two young daughters learning martial arts and a son who is small for his age and by all projections will be a smallish adult.
They train in karate with a focus on self protection, not besting the opponent in a toe to toe fight. Fight to escape. Nothing is illegal in the right (unfortunate) circumstances. I teach my girls chokes and strangles from the guard for self preservation purposes. Eye gouges, small joint breaks etc are all allowed.

It sounds corny but imo martial arts is about being the best version of ourselves we can be. The fight is with yourself.
Someone with disabilities can gain a great deal from martial arts even if they're not a match, physically, for their peers. What other people are capable of doing isn't the yardstick by which I measure the value of ma.
Kumite, even competitive, is a part of training. It isn't a fight, it's a test of yourself and an opportunity to expose your weaknesses.

Mma is about being better than the other person. I like competitive ma but I do somewhat believe it to be a subversion of martial arts. It's about standing, ego and money.

I don't see the dichotomy in telling my girls that, through training, they can help ensure their safety against anyone whilst still acknowledging that top flight male fighters are more capable than top flight female fighters.
Physically males have a higher ceiling than women. We're conflating athletes at the peak of what our bodies are capable of with the average martial artist. We seem to be conflating mma with martial arts in general when they are very different.
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mushybees
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Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 199
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a muay thai fight featuring the woman from that fight science clip in her prime.
She was undefeated and he had a 13-3 record.
https://youtu.be/X2QgDWSfQik
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MA care very little on genders, as it should. It's the CI and the like that propagate that small vs large...woman vs man as a negative mindset right lff the bat.

As a CI, this mindset is an insult to every female MA student!!

My female students know, without a shadow of doubt, that I have their backs across the board. I've no different approaches when it comes to teaching both male and female students...none. Why? To me, a student standing before me is nothing else but a student. Not a female student, and not a male student; just a student.

Female students of the MA are JUST AS CAPABLE as male students of the MA!! Male MA students aren't better than female MA student, vice versa! It's time that we CI's believe wholeheartedly in their female MA students. After all, YOUR FEMALE MA STUDENTS REPRESENTS YOU, AND WHAT YOU STAND FOR AS THAT FEMALE MA STUDENTS CI!!

I'm not saying this towards anyone here at KF, CI or not!! I'm addressing CI's in general! My Dai-Soke would've disowned me if I felt that female MA students were inferior to male MA students, no matter the venue, no matter the stakes, no matter whatever. Shindokan is only as good as the practitioner because Shindokan in and of itself, is effective across the board, not perfect, but extremely effective against whether the opponent be a female and/or a male...it's the person that stands before me, and I must deal with that person to the best of my abilities.

Until I turn into Superman, I'm subjected to one truth that I can't deny...I will not win every altercation, no matter what. I'm content with that because of just how deeply I believe, and live, in the maxims of Mizu No Kokoro and Tsuki No Kokoro. These maxims separate those who believe and those who don't believe...and I wholeheartedly believe.

Our female MA students within the Shindokan circle accept that same fate, and with dignity and resolve. Win or lose...competition or not...they will not worry...they will not retreat...they will not bask in fear!! Why? Mizu No Kokoro and Tsuki No Kokoro...they believe in it as well!!



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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinese belive in Demons; perhaps not exactly the Western world equivalent, but they are real.

Smoking is a type of Demon, as if it possesses the person to keep doing something wrong; the Demon voice saying "Smoke another cigarette, it will make you feel better"

Demons can be past on from one person to another, usually starting from parents and then in society.

Women can be brought up with Demons passed on to them in the home; just by being taught that house cleaning, making the beds, cooking and grocery shopping are Women's jobs; or simply the ones waiting on men.

Maybe these are not as obvious where you live but for many, this has not changed.

Men can carry around these Demons also; within there attitude of Women being less than them.

Sensei8 has no Demons when it comes to gender differences; for the rest that are Demon carriers, there is always hope for you to change and expulse them.

Punch like a girl ; has been known as a derogatory statement for a very long time; science proves otherwise as this video explains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Qfhs_4z8c

Perhaps when women start believing in themselves in totality, then they will be ready to take on their counterparts without the prior need for consent, permission and approval from any gender.
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mushybees
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Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 199
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I carry no demons.
In every other way apart from physical makeup women are the equal of men and surpass them in others. In some species the female is larger and stronger than the male.
Denying biology isn't being a feminist.

It's clear we don't agree on this subject so with the utmost respect I'll bow out.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wing Chun, the only martial art style accredited to a woman.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP4Alxh9NZ0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5rsYdyMTh1c

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I02M8L-2kro

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WqK2IlP-JSE


Wing Chun reaching new heights for women

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocbu83VnWp8


Humor= Ancient method for improving wisdom and happiness.

Wing Chun Girl vs Bruce Li

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHKAkJRybs
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29283
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Then why in the world are we instructors teaching/promoting females in our core styles?? Why?? Because it looks good on paper, in some office, somewhere??

Seems to me that no one is giving any female the respect I feel, and believe, that they wholeheartedly deserve/need.

A female with 10...20...30 years on the floor against a male with similar years on the floor, under YOUR guidance, the female practitioner is effectual across the board as the male practitioner under YOUR guidance, as well.

If we instructors don't give our female students any chance against a male student of equal knowledge and experience, then I feel/believe that we should just close the doors of our MA schools.

Why?

What we're teaching is for BOTH GENDERS!! Not for just one...not for our favorite bet...not for this and that. Our floors are full of both female and male students, and while the ratio might have more male than female students, and they EACH equally deserve our most loyal attention to provide them our best.

We, as MA instructors believe in what we're teaching our Student Body, equally, but whenever push comes to shove, the female student is left without any hope and/or comfort in their learned effectiveness, by their own instructor(s).

Imho!!




No one here is saying that.

UFC is for elite fighters. And elite females are always going to struggle against elite males. As they do with every other sporting activity.

Self defense or general fighting is a different thing.


I think you are confusing a few things here, Bob. I think the vast majority of us as Martial Artists or MA Instructors are teaching our students to learn how to defend themselves, which I not necessarily the same as winning a fight.

Self-defense = survival. Getting out of a situation in which one had to defend oneself from an attacker has nothing to do with wins and losses. We teach our male and female students to attack directly to vulnerable, vital targets quickly and powerfully in order to facilitate what???....to facilitate the chance to get away, get safe, and call the authorities. Not to "win" or "defeat" the opponent in a "fair" contest.

I do see the point you are getting at, Bob, but I think its an entirely different point you are thinking of.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
DWx wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Then why in the world are we instructors teaching/promoting females in our core styles?? Why?? Because it looks good on paper, in some office, somewhere??

Seems to me that no one is giving any female the respect I feel, and believe, that they wholeheartedly deserve/need.

A female with 10...20...30 years on the floor against a male with similar years on the floor, under YOUR guidance, the female practitioner is effectual across the board as the male practitioner under YOUR guidance, as well.

If we instructors don't give our female students any chance against a male student of equal knowledge and experience, then I feel/believe that we should just close the doors of our MA schools.

Why?

What we're teaching is for BOTH GENDERS!! Not for just one...not for our favorite bet...not for this and that. Our floors are full of both female and male students, and while the ratio might have more male than female students, and they EACH equally deserve our most loyal attention to provide them our best.

We, as MA instructors believe in what we're teaching our Student Body, equally, but whenever push comes to shove, the female student is left without any hope and/or comfort in their learned effectiveness, by their own instructor(s).

Imho!!




No one here is saying that.

UFC is for elite fighters. And elite females are always going to struggle against elite males. As they do with every other sporting activity.

Self defense or general fighting is a different thing.


I think you are confusing a few things here, Bob. I think the vast majority of us as Martial Artists or MA Instructors are teaching our students to learn how to defend themselves, which I not necessarily the same as winning a fight.

Self-defense = survival. Getting out of a situation in which one had to defend oneself from an attacker has nothing to do with wins and losses. We teach our male and female students to attack directly to vulnerable, vital targets quickly and powerfully in order to facilitate what???....to facilitate the chance to get away, get safe, and call the authorities. Not to "win" or "defeat" the opponent in a "fair" contest.

I do see the point you are getting at, Bob, but I think its an entirely different point you are thinking of.

You might be right, Brian...I might be confusing a few things here.

Whenever I read it over and over again that women, especially women MAists don't stand a chance against a man, MAist or not, for various reasons, and some of those opinions have stemmed from right here at KF, and not just within this thread, I believe that my confusion is warranted, but my confusion is more directed towards those who's opinions write women off.

Has any male MAist here ever been bested by a female MAist, ever?? Well, I have, and I'm no pushover whatsoever by any means. I've not learned the MA to win contests, nor have my students; albeit, to survive an attack. And to me as well as my students, and how I've/they've been taught the MA, and how my students have learned the MA from me, is that an attack is an attack, nor matter the venue, is taken seriously.



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29283
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you, Bob, and I think you are teaching things right and doing it clearly. And I don't think you are discounting your female students at all. I don't think any of us are. But are any of us as instructors encouraging our female students to take the opportunities to engage male students in combat? No, I don't think we are. And it would be wrong for us to do so.

The thing is separating self-defense from competition, especially at the elite levels. Look at Olympic weightlifting, male vs female. There are lots of strong women out there, stronger than guys I see in my gym, like the one I see in the mirror all the time. But can they compete with the males in Olympic lifting? No, not even close. Does that make them a failure? No, not even close. Same with baseball vs softball, or why we don't see women playing on the men's soccer teams. And more recently, we see the advent of women's wrestling competition at higher levels, college and international competitions. This is because as the competition gets tougher, it gets tougher for elite woman athletes to compete with elite male athletes.

So, I say, we don't do women a disservice. We actually help them more by giving them chances to succeed within the female competitions.

And again, I am not saying that woman doesn't ever have a chance to defend herself against a man. I will never say that. Nor do I want a woman to stay in the fight any longer than she has to against a male attacker. As with any self-defense situation (man or woman), defend yourself quickly and get away.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, too, hear what you're saying, as well, Brian; through and through. And you're absolutely correct when you say that us instructors would never encourage our female students to engage male students in combat. However, I'd not discourage my female students to engage a male student in combat if that's what they wanted to do of their own volition.

But to even a small point, hasn't rules and regulations made it whereas the females being separate from males made it the reality that it is no matter the venue. There's the weight divisions, for example, rules and regulations that have made it in the minds of human endeavors that a lightweight can't beat a heavyweight. So much so, that doubts are automatically raised because of those who are proponents for weight divisions, no matter the venue.

Women aren't in many professional sports, like the MLB, for example, because it's been routed as a man's game; no women allowed mindset. And for some of those professional sports, I might be willing to agree...maybe.

Is the human race slightly prejudice against women because they're women?!? I mean, there seems to be a very limited equality towards women in many, many sport venues. The MA world is not exception.





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