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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great points of view sensei8

My little light hearted Wing Chun video selection was to highlight, that this gender issue isn't new, what so ever.

As the Wing Chun style is founded on this very debate and not on rules, regulations, weight and size differences but on using, straight forward effective techniques.

Just if I may jump back a little with David and Goliath.

Goliath could just as well use a sling shot against David.

Goliath using a sling shot wouldn't have the depth perception quality necessary to use it accurately, due to having one eye.

David being skill based and Goliath being strength based.

As martial artists we are using "knowledge" passed to us through countless generations.

Putting this martial art knowledge in to "Skills" with constant practice.

This combination of knowledge and skill is fused together as one.

The next ingredient is "Attitude" this is what the person puts in to his or her martial art.

Perhaps our skill and knowledge is very similar.

It is "Attitude" and having the right or wrong one that makes the real difference.

Bringing out the right attitude male or female is why a person is a winner or a looser.

Attitude is an accelerator, a type of rocket fuel for humans; where most people are apparently running on gasoline; both will fuel your engine, just that one will get you to where you want to be alot faster.

Attitude in Ballet is very important to Ballerinas.

Attitude for martial artists is important also, just as long as it is the right one for females; as sensei8 points out incredibly well.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29283
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that anyone is saying that men are better than women. What has to be understood, though, is that women and men are different, and this is important to keep in mind.

With that said, I don't teach a different curriculum to women than I do to men. I teach the same stuff to all of them. But I'm not in the business of having men and women trying to beat the tar out of each other, either.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mushybees wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Then why in the world are we instructors teaching/promoting females in our core styles?? Why?? Because it looks good on paper, in some office, somewhere??

Seems to me that no one is giving any female the respect I feel, and believe, that they wholeheartedly deserve/need.

A female with 10...20...30 years on the floor against a male with similar years on the floor, under YOUR guidance, the female practitioner is effectual across the board as the male practitioner under YOUR guidance, as well.

If we instructors don't give our female students any chance against a male student of equal knowledge and experience, then I feel/believe that we should just close the doors of our MA schools.

Why?

What we're teaching is for BOTH GENDERS!! Not for just one...not for our favorite bet...not for this and that. Our floors are full of both female and male students, and while the ratio might have more male than female students, and they EACH equally deserve our most loyal attention to provide them our best.

We, as MA instructors believe in what we're teaching our Student Body, equally, but whenever push comes to shove, the female student is left without any hope and/or comfort in their learned effectiveness, by their own instructor(s).

Imho!!


I would love to believe that resolve and determination is the ultimate leveller in any physical confrontation.
I have two young daughters learning martial arts and a son who is small for his age and by all projections will be a smallish adult.
They train in karate with a focus on self protection, not besting the opponent in a toe to toe fight. Fight to escape. Nothing is illegal in the right (unfortunate) circumstances. I teach my girls chokes and strangles from the guard for self preservation purposes. Eye gouges, small joint breaks etc are all allowed.

It sounds corny but imo martial arts is about being the best version of ourselves we can be. The fight is with yourself.
Someone with disabilities can gain a great deal from martial arts even if they're not a match, physically, for their peers. What other people are capable of doing isn't the yardstick by which I measure the value of ma.
Kumite, even competitive, is a part of training. It isn't a fight, it's a test of yourself and an opportunity to expose your weaknesses.

Mma is about being better than the other person. I like competitive ma but I do somewhat believe it to be a subversion of martial arts. It's about standing, ego and money.

I don't see the dichotomy in telling my girls that, through training, they can help ensure their safety against anyone whilst still acknowledging that top flight male fighters are more capable than top flight female fighters.
Physically males have a higher ceiling than women. We're conflating athletes at the peak of what our bodies are capable of with the average martial artist. We seem to be conflating mma with martial arts in general when they are very different.


Could not agree more. In most instances the person with the most resolve (size of the fight in the dog) will prevail. I have experienced it and seen it. Size in many instances is trumped by shear will providing there is a basis of skill and technical proficiency.

I have seen smaller female drop larger males. I've been thrown by a smaller female. So I'd be the last to say it's not possible. And Sensei8 is right we are teaching our students equally.

However we are talking about elite fighters where both have the resolve and the skill and superior technique to match. IMHO the female looses 9 out of ten times. Again the reason why is genetics. Male have been in the fight game for a lot longer. Not to say that there are not women warriors in the worlds cultures but you can't argue with centuries of warfare where the male has been the warrior. It's not sexist it's just genetics passed down from generation to generation. The difference is rules. The UFC is set up to take the dirty, effective and dangerous techniques out of play that would level the playing field. This gives the advantage to the male.

And don't forget that it was not that long ago when it was "unlady like" to participate in combative sports. It's never been unman like. So there is not gap in the mentality of men teaching their kids to fight and passing on those traits.

I'm sorry if this offends our female members, truly it is not meant to do so, and I would be the first to say that a female student of the arts would be able to hold there own and would have ample chance against a male on the streets but I just can not give it to a female in the terms and guidelines suggested in this post concerning the UFC.

Maybe a technical competition of grappling between the sexes but interject strikes and the game changes. Women striking women is one thing but a man in the highest levels striking a female fighter... Sorry but it's over.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468


PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great point bushido.

Traditional martial arts and UFC are opposites.

As one is learning to respect, protect and defend and the other is learning how to insult, attack and destroy.

The problem here is mixing the two on the same page.
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DWx
KF Sensei
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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6443
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:

I'm sorry if this offends our female members, truly it is not meant to do so, and I would be the first to say that a female student of the arts would be able to hold there own and would have ample chance against a male on the streets but I just can not give it to a female in the terms and guidelines suggested in this post concerning the UFC.

The funny thing is, the female posters in this thread (myself and Lupin1) are agreeing with you. The opposing views are being presented by two men. Make of that what you will...
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468


PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:

I'm sorry if this offends our female members, truly it is not meant to do so, and I would be the first to say that a female student of the arts would be able to hold there own and would have ample chance against a male on the streets but I just can not give it to a female in the terms and guidelines suggested in this post concerning the UFC.

The funny thing is, the female posters in this thread (myself and Lupin1) are agreeing with you. The opposing views are being presented by two men. Make of that what you will...
It is just that some men here believe in women's capabilities more than they do; no need to make of that what you will... it's just the way it is.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Then why in the world are we instructors teaching/promoting females in our core styles?? Why?? Because it looks good on paper, in some office, somewhere??

Seems to me that no one is giving any female the respect I feel, and believe, that they wholeheartedly deserve/need.

A female with 10...20...30 years on the floor against a male with similar years on the floor, under YOUR guidance, the female practitioner is effectual across the board as the male practitioner under YOUR guidance, as well.

If we instructors don't give our female students any chance against a male student of equal knowledge and experience, then I feel/believe that we should just close the doors of our MA schools.

Why?

What we're teaching is for BOTH GENDERS!! Not for just one...not for our favorite bet...not for this and that. Our floors are full of both female and male students, and while the ratio might have more male than female students, and they EACH equally deserve our most loyal attention to provide them our best.

We, as MA instructors believe in what we're teaching our Student Body, equally, but whenever push comes to shove, the female student is left without any hope and/or comfort in their learned effectiveness, by their own instructor(s).

Imho!!






Agreed, agreed, agreed!

I am not saying that a female is not able to take down a male. But we are talking two different scenarios Sensei8.

Your talking on the streets where there are no rules and the techniques that we teach can be employed to even the playing field or turn the tides to the females favor. Heck go back and read one of my other posts defending females against male. I can't remember the exact post but it was in terms of female vs male or small vs large or something along those lines. But that again was under a different context. We were not talking UFC.

I am simply pointing out that in the terms of this post (UFC elite against elite) the male will come out on top every time because of the rules involved. We all know ways (or at least I assume we do) to take an aggressor out fast by means of submission, knockout, injury or even death. The difference is once you enter that cage you are stripped of the techniques that level the playing field of small taking on large and female taking on male.

It's just fact. The male is genetically built over centuries to fight. It's in our genetic make up and a male of say 205 lbs is going to hit much much harder than a female of the same weight class. This actually skews the weight classes. I am taking into mind that both are equal in technical proficiency, skill, and knowledge.

I watched a show years ago, I think it was fight science of something of those terms, anyway the were showing the power generation of a punch. The men punched two times harder (power) than the females and in some instances even harder. Its not an argument, it's centuries of genetics. Our bodies are built differently, it's science.

Now having said that I agree with you 100% that a well trained female against a male, and allowing for all techniques, would more than have a chance against the male.

Heck, take the number one equalizer weapon that any layman would teach a female, the groin kick. You can't do that in the UFC much less any other technique that we teach to equalize the fight. It's not an argument of whether females stack up in everyday life it's a question of rules in the UFC and what you can and can not do. If you take away our techniques larger or more powerful fighter will prevail. This is why the techniques were invented in the first place. Call it dirty fighting or what you will be this is the equalizer when a smaller man faces a large man or when a female faces a male. Obviously technique and intent will be the deciding factor unless there is a lucky shot but if you remove the equalizing techniques for the sake of sport and safety then size and power comes right back into play.

It's just my personal opinion. Everyone is free to have there own. I am definitely not taking anything away from female fighters. Most could probably destroy me. God knows I do not train for 8 hours a day, have all of the science and multitude of trainers/ instructors to train me to be the best. I'd have to quite my job and find the fountain of youth to reduce about 30 years to even have a fighting chance in the cage against most of the fighters whether male or female.

So I am not arguing the fact that women can stand toe to toe with men if trained. I am arguing that we are built differently and like it or not the male is genetically built for combative sports. In this case the elite male would over take the elite female on the same playing field and under the same rules (UFC). Call me a sexist or a bad instructor or whatever you will but I feel that these are the facts IMHO.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468


PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Then why in the world are we instructors teaching/promoting females in our core styles?? Why?? Because it looks good on paper, in some office, somewhere??

Seems to me that no one is giving any female the respect I feel, and believe, that they wholeheartedly deserve/need.

A female with 10...20...30 years on the floor against a male with similar years on the floor, under YOUR guidance, the female practitioner is effectual across the board as the male practitioner under YOUR guidance, as well.

If we instructors don't give our female students any chance against a male student of equal knowledge and experience, then I feel/believe that we should just close the doors of our MA schools.

Why?

What we're teaching is for BOTH GENDERS!! Not for just one...not for our favorite bet...not for this and that. Our floors are full of both female and male students, and while the ratio might have more male than female students, and they EACH equally deserve our most loyal attention to provide them our best.

We, as MA instructors believe in what we're teaching our Student Body, equally, but whenever push comes to shove, the female student is left without any hope and/or comfort in their learned effectiveness, by their own instructor(s).

Imho!!






Agreed, agreed, agreed!

I am not saying that a female is not able to take down a male. But we are talking two different scenarios Sensei8.

Your talking on the streets where there are no rules and the techniques that we teach can be employed to even the playing field or turn the tides to the females favor. Heck go back and read one of my other posts defending females against male. I can't remember the exact post but it was in terms of female vs male or small vs large or something along those lines. But that again was under a different context. We were not talking UFC.

I am simply pointing out that in the terms of this post (UFC elite against elite) the male will come out on top every time because of the rules involved. We all know ways (or at least I assume we do) to take an aggressor out fast by means of submission, knockout, injury or even death. The difference is once you enter that cage you are stripped of the techniques that level the playing field of small taking on large and female taking on male.

It's just fact. The male is genetically built over centuries to fight. It's in our genetic make up and a male of say 205 lbs is going to hit much much harder than a female of the same weight class. This actually skews the weight classes. I am taking into mind that both are equal in technical proficiency, skill, and knowledge.

I watched a show years ago, I think it was fight science of something of those terms, anyway the were showing the power generation of a punch. The men punched two times harder (power) than the females and in some instances even harder. Its not an argument, it's centuries of genetics. Our bodies are built differently, it's science.
Now having said that I agree with you 100% that a well trained female against a male, and allowing for all techniques, would more than have a chance against the male.

Heck, take the number one equalizer weapon that any layman would teach a female, the groin kick. You can't do that in the UFC much less any other technique that we teach to equalize the fight. It's not an argument of whether females stack up in everyday life it's a question of rules in the UFC and what you can and can not do. If you take away our techniques larger or more powerful fighter will prevail. This is why the techniques were invented in the first place. Call it dirty fighting or what you will be this is the equalizer when a smaller man faces a large man or when a female faces a male. Obviously technique and intent will be the deciding factor unless there is a lucky shot but if you remove the equalizing techniques for the sake of sport and safety then size and power comes right back into play.

It's just my personal opinion. Everyone is free to have there own. I am definitely not taking anything away from female fighters. Most could probably destroy me. God knows I do not train for 8 hours a day, have all of the science and multitude of trainers/ instructors to train me to be the best. I'd have to quite my job and find the fountain of youth to reduce about 30 years to even have a fighting chance in the cage against most of the fighters whether male or female.

So I am not arguing the fact that women can stand toe to toe with men if trained. I am arguing that we are built differently and like it or not the male is genetically built for combative sports. In this case the elite male would over take the elite female on the same playing field and under the same rules (UFC). Call me a sexist or a bad instructor or whatever you will but I feel that these are the facts IMHO.
Here is the latest fight science information.

Punch like a girl ; has been known as a derogatory statement for a very long time; science proves otherwise as this video explains.

For the statement highlighted in red

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Qfhs_4z8c
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:

I'm sorry if this offends our female members, truly it is not meant to do so, and I would be the first to say that a female student of the arts would be able to hold there own and would have ample chance against a male on the streets but I just can not give it to a female in the terms and guidelines suggested in this post concerning the UFC.

The funny thing is, the female posters in this thread (myself and Lupin1) are agreeing with you. The opposing views are being presented by two men. Make of that what you will...


DWX,

I appreciate you saying that. I feared this would be taken out of context. I take nothing away from women in terms of self defense or fighting capability. I was merely speaking within the context of this post (UFC elite vs elite).
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Then why in the world are we instructors teaching/promoting females in our core styles?? Why?? Because it looks good on paper, in some office, somewhere??

Seems to me that no one is giving any female the respect I feel, and believe, that they wholeheartedly deserve/need.

A female with 10...20...30 years on the floor against a male with similar years on the floor, under YOUR guidance, the female practitioner is effectual across the board as the male practitioner under YOUR guidance, as well.

If we instructors don't give our female students any chance against a male student of equal knowledge and experience, then I feel/believe that we should just close the doors of our MA schools.

Why?

What we're teaching is for BOTH GENDERS!! Not for just one...not for our favorite bet...not for this and that. Our floors are full of both female and male students, and while the ratio might have more male than female students, and they EACH equally deserve our most loyal attention to provide them our best.

We, as MA instructors believe in what we're teaching our Student Body, equally, but whenever push comes to shove, the female student is left without any hope and/or comfort in their learned effectiveness, by their own instructor(s).

Imho!!






Agreed, agreed, agreed!

I am not saying that a female is not able to take down a male. But we are talking two different scenarios Sensei8.

Your talking on the streets where there are no rules and the techniques that we teach can be employed to even the playing field or turn the tides to the females favor. Heck go back and read one of my other posts defending females against male. I can't remember the exact post but it was in terms of female vs male or small vs large or something along those lines. But that again was under a different context. We were not talking UFC.

I am simply pointing out that in the terms of this post (UFC elite against elite) the male will come out on top every time because of the rules involved. We all know ways (or at least I assume we do) to take an aggressor out fast by means of submission, knockout, injury or even death. The difference is once you enter that cage you are stripped of the techniques that level the playing field of small taking on large and female taking on male.

It's just fact. The male is genetically built over centuries to fight. It's in our genetic make up and a male of say 205 lbs is going to hit much much harder than a female of the same weight class. This actually skews the weight classes. I am taking into mind that both are equal in technical proficiency, skill, and knowledge.

I watched a show years ago, I think it was fight science of something of those terms, anyway the were showing the power generation of a punch. The men punched two times harder (power) than the females and in some instances even harder. Its not an argument, it's centuries of genetics. Our bodies are built differently, it's science.
Now having said that I agree with you 100% that a well trained female against a male, and allowing for all techniques, would more than have a chance against the male.

Heck, take the number one equalizer weapon that any layman would teach a female, the groin kick. You can't do that in the UFC much less any other technique that we teach to equalize the fight. It's not an argument of whether females stack up in everyday life it's a question of rules in the UFC and what you can and can not do. If you take away our techniques larger or more powerful fighter will prevail. This is why the techniques were invented in the first place. Call it dirty fighting or what you will be this is the equalizer when a smaller man faces a large man or when a female faces a male. Obviously technique and intent will be the deciding factor unless there is a lucky shot but if you remove the equalizing techniques for the sake of sport and safety then size and power comes right back into play.

It's just my personal opinion. Everyone is free to have there own. I am definitely not taking anything away from female fighters. Most could probably destroy me. God knows I do not train for 8 hours a day, have all of the science and multitude of trainers/ instructors to train me to be the best. I'd have to quite my job and find the fountain of youth to reduce about 30 years to even have a fighting chance in the cage against most of the fighters whether male or female.

So I am not arguing the fact that women can stand toe to toe with men if trained. I am arguing that we are built differently and like it or not the male is genetically built for combative sports. In this case the elite male would over take the elite female on the same playing field and under the same rules (UFC). Call me a sexist or a bad instructor or whatever you will but I feel that these are the facts IMHO.
Here is the latest fight science information.

Punch like a girl ; has been known as a derogatory statement for a very long time; science proves otherwise as this video explains.

For the statement highlighted in red

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Qfhs_4z8c


Ok, I have not seen this evidence presented before. In this case I would say my statements are dead wrong. Wow, that was impressive to say the least.

Ok, I guess I have nothing left to add. Ignore my earlier posts. I guess I have to learn to like the taste of crow because I just ate some. Well supported argument Alan. I admit I was wrong in my assumption.
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