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neoravencroft
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 02 May 2015
Posts: 122
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Styles: Wing Chun, JKD, Uechi-Ryu, Escrima, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Do they not provide training for difficult or combative patients as part of the job? My sister works in healthcare and they get taught both verbal and physical strategies.

As far as the Hippocratic oath goes, which bit would be cause for concern? As far as I can tell nothing in it would prevent you from striking. I would also consider preventing a patient from further injuring themselves or others as preventing further harm.


They only teach de-escalation tactics to healthcare personnel against assailants. Any training beyond that goes into the realm of security.
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neoravencroft
Orange Belt
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Joined: 02 May 2015
Posts: 122
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Styles: Wing Chun, JKD, Uechi-Ryu, Escrima, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
If you're looking for "an excuse" to study another martial art, I say go for it! Aikido, BJJ and judo come to mind.


lol. Not really looking looking for an excuse to learn something else (tempting as that is), just trying to find new ways of self defense in an environment that's new to me.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
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Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2435
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Martial Arts for a healthcare employee Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
DWx wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:

Do you really have the mindset that you might have to fight a patient?

Happens more often than you might think. Mental disability, drink, drugs, or even just being very sick and disorientated can make someone lash out.


I know. But surely the mindset should not be the expectation to fight? The expectation to have to use non violent restraint perhaps. But surely not to fight. That being the case, I can't see that martial arts are the answer.


Define fight. Depending on the healthcare setting - psychiatric, emergency room, etc. there could very well be the expectation to defend oneself and/or restrain a patient to prevent the patient from harm to him/herself and/or others.

The setting dictates the expectations. In a traditional doctorís office, there shouldnít be the expectation. Working in an emergency room where people are brought in drunk and/or under the influence of drugs, have dementia, etc.; itís generally a matter of when youíll need to defend yourself rather than if. Yes thereís security and coworkers to help, but thereís no shortage of time alone with a patient and even if help is within vocal distance away, itís still a matter of them getting there.

I know plenty of healthcare workers in these settings. Itís not an everyday thing, but definitely somewhat regular.

Iíd recommend a grappling art thatís thorough in standing grappling. Wrestling, judo. MTís clinch work should be sufficient though. Striking would be a big liability. You should look to restrain rather than strike. Striking (and throwing) would be a very last resort IMO. Tactics should probably fall in line with security and LEO work.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Martial Arts for a healthcare employee Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:


Define fight.


Engaging in physical combat. Seeking to apply techniques that have the primary purpose of causing sufficient pain and/or injury to overwhelm and disable an opponent.

Basically the stuff we learn in martial arts.

I may have given the wrong impression earlier. I'm by no means opposed to the idea of anyone training martial arts. Even outside of combat, I believe martial arts have a tremendous amount to offer.

However I do find it a little bit disturbing that someone working in healthcare would open with the statement that they can't use muay thai because it's a striking art and goes against the hippocratic oath, then goes on to ask what other martial art would be ok against a patient.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Martial Arts for a healthcare employee Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:


Define fight.


Engaging in physical combat. Seeking to apply techniques that have the primary purpose of causing sufficient pain and/or injury to overwhelm and disable an opponent.

Basically the stuff we learn in martial arts.

I may have given the wrong impression earlier. I'm by no means opposed to the idea of anyone training martial arts. Even outside of combat, I believe martial arts have a tremendous amount to offer.

However I do find it a little bit disturbing that someone working in healthcare would open with the statement that they can't use muay thai because it's a striking art and goes against the hippocratic oath, then goes on to ask what other martial art would be ok against a patient.
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neoravencroft
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Joined: 02 May 2015
Posts: 122
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Styles: Wing Chun, JKD, Uechi-Ryu, Escrima, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Martial Arts for a healthcare employee Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
JR 137 wrote:


Define fight.


Engaging in physical combat. Seeking to apply techniques that have the primary purpose of causing sufficient pain and/or injury to overwhelm and disable an opponent.

Basically the stuff we learn in martial arts.

I may have given the wrong impression earlier. I'm by no means opposed to the idea of anyone training martial arts. Even outside of combat, I believe martial arts have a tremendous amount to offer.

However I do find it a little bit disturbing that someone working in healthcare would open with the statement that they can't use muay thai because it's a striking art and goes against the hippocratic oath, then goes on to ask what other martial art would be ok against a patient.


I think you're misunderstanding me. What I meant to say is I'm looking for something that will minimize the damage done to the assailant. There will be times where someone will decide to attack either myself or someone else. I'm looking for something that will not only disable the assailant with minimal damage to that said person while at the same time reduce the amount of "evidence" that the assailant would have if said individual was most likely to file a lawsuit for whatever the reason.
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neoravencroft
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Joined: 02 May 2015
Posts: 122
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Styles: Wing Chun, JKD, Uechi-Ryu, Escrima, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Martial Arts for a healthcare employee Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
DWx wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:

Do you really have the mindset that you might have to fight a patient?

Happens more often than you might think. Mental disability, drink, drugs, or even just being very sick and disorientated can make someone lash out.


I know. But surely the mindset should not be the expectation to fight? The expectation to have to use non violent restraint perhaps. But surely not to fight. That being the case, I can't see that martial arts are the answer.


Define fight. Depending on the healthcare setting - psychiatric, emergency room, etc. there could very well be the expectation to defend oneself and/or restrain a patient to prevent the patient from harm to him/herself and/or others.

The setting dictates the expectations. In a traditional doctorís office, there shouldnít be the expectation. Working in an emergency room where people are brought in drunk and/or under the influence of drugs, have dementia, etc.; itís generally a matter of when youíll need to defend yourself rather than if. Yes thereís security and coworkers to help, but thereís no shortage of time alone with a patient and even if help is within vocal distance away, itís still a matter of them getting there.

I know plenty of healthcare workers in these settings. Itís not an everyday thing, but definitely somewhat regular.

Iíd recommend a grappling art thatís thorough in standing grappling. Wrestling, judo. MTís clinch work should be sufficient though. Striking would be a big liability. You should look to restrain rather than strike. Striking (and throwing) would be a very last resort IMO. Tactics should probably fall in line with security and LEO work.


I was thinking about joining Judo to add with my Muay Thai seeing as having a grappling style helps. However, how about Aikido? I know they have a specialty in joint locks, but I hear a lot of negative things about the art itself being "ineffective."
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Martial Arts for a healthcare employee Reply with quote

neoravencroft wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
JR 137 wrote:


Define fight.


Engaging in physical combat. Seeking to apply techniques that have the primary purpose of causing sufficient pain and/or injury to overwhelm and disable an opponent.

Basically the stuff we learn in martial arts.

I may have given the wrong impression earlier. I'm by no means opposed to the idea of anyone training martial arts. Even outside of combat, I believe martial arts have a tremendous amount to offer.

However I do find it a little bit disturbing that someone working in healthcare would open with the statement that they can't use muay thai because it's a striking art and goes against the hippocratic oath, then goes on to ask what other martial art would be ok against a patient.


I think you're misunderstanding me. What I meant to say is I'm looking for something that will minimize the damage done to the assailant. There will be times where someone will decide to attack either myself or someone else. I'm looking for something that will not only disable the assailant with minimal damage to that said person while at the same time reduce the amount of "evidence" that the assailant would have if said individual was most likely to file a lawsuit for whatever the reason.


Perhaps do the door staff course. They are trained exactly for the scenario you describe. I'm sure different countries have different certification etc, but in the UK all door staff have to have passed a certain course. It covers de-escalation as well as physical intervention. Some of the physical stuff looks like aikido, and indeed there are bouncers that train aikido to supplement their security training, but the techniques are specifically modified away from their original joint destroying purpose to work better as non-destructive restraint. If you had whatever is the recognised certification for your bit of the world, and you had to use the techniques, while you would not be immune to prosecution if you used excessive force, you would at least have the backing of having used approved techniques.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
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Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would concentrate more on subduing and controlling side of the arts. I know very little about the Hippocratic oath but if striking violates this oath then controlling an opponent by means of joint, bone manipulation would probably be a better option.

However if the patient is high on drugs this form of self defense may be proven inadequate. Bullets do not stop someone whacked out on the hard stuff so joint locks are going to be of little use. I'm sure chokes are probably out of the question as well so I'm not real sure what art would be best suited for some of the situations you would be confronted with.

Maybe a Taser. Call the art Stungun Fu.

Better yet purchase a airgun and use tranquilizer darts. We can call it Nighty Night Fu.
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neoravencroft
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Joined: 02 May 2015
Posts: 122
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Styles: Wing Chun, JKD, Uechi-Ryu, Escrima, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Maybe a Taser. Call the art Stungun Fu.

Better yet purchase a airgun and use tranquilizer darts. We can call it Nighty Night Fu.


lol! I like the way you think. However, both of those items are illegal on hospital grounds, so I think joint locks and holds would be a better option.
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