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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another point.

Hospitals are like any other workplace. There are employees that seem to spend an inordinate amount of their shift looking for policy violations of other employees. You will get the nurse, or housekeeper that will report you for any perceived policy violation. If you kick the guy in the head while he is choking you, he will report the action.

For instance, we have a few that will report a use of force "violation", simply because they do not understand the difference between life and death, and basic dementia behavior. This is one reason the written report is so vital. We have learned to be cognizant of who is around.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
Another point.

Hospitals are like any other workplace. There are employees that seem to spend an inordinate amount of their shift looking for policy violations of other employees. You will get the nurse, or housekeeper that will report you for any perceived policy violation. If you kick the guy in the head while he is choking you, he will report the action.

.


I'm genuinely interested. How do you kick someone in the head while they are choking you?
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Another point.

Hospitals are like any other workplace. There are employees that seem to spend an inordinate amount of their shift looking for policy violations of other employees. You will get the nurse, or housekeeper that will report you for any perceived policy violation. If you kick the guy in the head while he is choking you, he will report the action.

.


I'm genuinely interested. How do you kick someone in the head while they are choking you?


Very carefully.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Another point.

Hospitals are like any other workplace. There are employees that seem to spend an inordinate amount of their shift looking for policy violations of other employees. You will get the nurse, or housekeeper that will report you for any perceived policy violation. If you kick the guy in the head while he is choking you, he will report the action.

.


I'm genuinely interested. How do you kick someone in the head while they are choking you?


Very carefully.


But how. I'm trying to visualise all the positions in might be in if I were being choked, and what position my assailant might be in while choking me. Then while visualising all those positions, I'm trying to further visualise how I might kick to his head from that position. I find it can't visualise it. It seems impossible.

The theme of this thread seems to be along the lines of 'work in a hospital, you get to hurt people'. I would love to be in court the day that the defendant is explaining that it was self defence when he kicked the patient in the head. To kick someone in the head, it's best to be in kicking range. That is usually (granted not always) slightly beyond hand technique range on account of legs being approx 30% longer than arms. If you are out of hand technique range, it's hard to see how it is self defence.

I'm genuinely interested in guess in a couple things.

1. How are trial might go when someone is explaining that a kick to the head is self defence or necessary force in the context of restraint of a patient and

2. How on earth you kick someone in the head while they are choking you.

So far, the conclusion I'm forming is simply that some people get excited at the prospect of hurting people.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Another point.

Hospitals are like any other workplace. There are employees that seem to spend an inordinate amount of their shift looking for policy violations of other employees. You will get the nurse, or housekeeper that will report you for any perceived policy violation. If you kick the guy in the head while he is choking you, he will report the action.

.


I'm genuinely interested. How do you kick someone in the head while they are choking you?


Very carefully.


But how. I'm trying to visualise all the positions in might be in if I were being choked, and what position my assailant might be in while choking me. Then while visualising all those positions, I'm trying to further visualise how I might kick to his head from that position. I find it can't visualise it. It seems impossible.

The theme of this thread seems to be along the lines of 'work in a hospital, you get to hurt people'. I would love to be in court the day that the defendant is explaining that it was self defence when he kicked the patient in the head. To kick someone in the head, it's best to be in kicking range. That is usually (granted not always) slightly beyond hand technique range on account of legs being approx 30% longer than arms. If you are out of hand technique range, it's hard to see how it is self defence.

I'm genuinely interested in guess in a couple things.

1. How are trial might go when someone is explaining that a kick to the head is self defence or necessary force in the context of restraint of a patient and

2. How on earth you kick someone in the head while they are choking you.

So far, the conclusion I'm forming is simply that some people get excited at the prospect of hurting people.


So a couple of things:

1. Under US law, a choke is typically considered deadly force, as a result you are authorized to do what is needed to stop the threat. Up to and including deploying your firearm. A kick to the head once someone has attempted a choke, if they are still standing, would be no issue whatsoever. May be a policy violation, but no issue with the law.

2. TKD teaches an, albeit not very good normally, defense against front chokes where you break the opponents posture by attacking a wrist or elbow lock and then deploy a head kick once they are in the bent over position to finish the situation.

While I personally don't like it, against an untrained attacker that you caught off guard it could work, and would result in you kicking them in the head as part of a choke defense.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Another point.

Hospitals are like any other workplace. There are employees that seem to spend an inordinate amount of their shift looking for policy violations of other employees. You will get the nurse, or housekeeper that will report you for any perceived policy violation. If you kick the guy in the head while he is choking you, he will report the action.

.


I'm genuinely interested. How do you kick someone in the head while they are choking you?


Very carefully.


But how. I'm trying to visualise all the positions in might be in if I were being choked, and what position my assailant might be in while choking me. Then while visualising all those positions, I'm trying to further visualise how I might kick to his head from that position. I find it can't visualise it. It seems impossible.

The theme of this thread seems to be along the lines of 'work in a hospital, you get to hurt people'. I would love to be in court the day that the defendant is explaining that it was self defence when he kicked the patient in the head. To kick someone in the head, it's best to be in kicking range. That is usually (granted not always) slightly beyond hand technique range on account of legs being approx 30% longer than arms. If you are out of hand technique range, it's hard to see how it is self defence.

I'm genuinely interested in guess in a couple things.

1. How are trial might go when someone is explaining that a kick to the head is self defence or necessary force in the context of restraint of a patient and

2. How on earth you kick someone in the head while they are choking you.

So far, the conclusion I'm forming is simply that some people get excited at the prospect of hurting people.


So a couple of things:

1. Under US law, a choke is typically considered deadly force, as a result you are authorized to do what is needed to stop the threat. Up to and including deploying your firearm. A kick to the head once someone has attempted a choke, if they are still standing, would be no issue whatsoever. May be a policy violation, but no issue with the law.

2. TKD teaches an, albeit not very good normally, defense against front chokes where you break the opponents posture by attacking a wrist or elbow lock and then deploy a head kick once they are in the bent over position to finish the situation.

While I personally don't like it, against an untrained attacker that you caught off guard it could work, and would result in you kicking them in the head as part of a choke defense.


South this is the classic, primeval, untrained strangle attempt we're on about it guess? Ie attacker is in front of you with both hands gripping and squeezing your neck?

In which case, most martial artists, after just a few weeks, will be familiar with approximately one gazillion ways to break the grip and escape or counter, very few of which would be a kick to the head.

I'm glad you clarified the jurisdiction as being US law. Here in Britain, the use of violence is highly frowned upon and while it is permitted in self defence, even if it results in the attacker being killed, it always comes under scrutiny and has to be explained in full to determine if the force was justified or not.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 420
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
Tempest wrote:
OneKickWonder wrote:
LLLEARNER wrote:
Another point.

Hospitals are like any other workplace. There are employees that seem to spend an inordinate amount of their shift looking for policy violations of other employees. You will get the nurse, or housekeeper that will report you for any perceived policy violation. If you kick the guy in the head while he is choking you, he will report the action.

.


I'm genuinely interested. How do you kick someone in the head while they are choking you?


Very carefully.


But how. I'm trying to visualise all the positions in might be in if I were being choked, and what position my assailant might be in while choking me. Then while visualising all those positions, I'm trying to further visualise how I might kick to his head from that position. I find it can't visualise it. It seems impossible.

The theme of this thread seems to be along the lines of 'work in a hospital, you get to hurt people'. I would love to be in court the day that the defendant is explaining that it was self defence when he kicked the patient in the head. To kick someone in the head, it's best to be in kicking range. That is usually (granted not always) slightly beyond hand technique range on account of legs being approx 30% longer than arms. If you are out of hand technique range, it's hard to see how it is self defence.

I'm genuinely interested in guess in a couple things.

1. How are trial might go when someone is explaining that a kick to the head is self defence or necessary force in the context of restraint of a patient and

2. How on earth you kick someone in the head while they are choking you.

So far, the conclusion I'm forming is simply that some people get excited at the prospect of hurting people.


So a couple of things:

1. Under US law, a choke is typically considered deadly force, as a result you are authorized to do what is needed to stop the threat. Up to and including deploying your firearm. A kick to the head once someone has attempted a choke, if they are still standing, would be no issue whatsoever. May be a policy violation, but no issue with the law.

2. TKD teaches an, albeit not very good normally, defense against front chokes where you break the opponents posture by attacking a wrist or elbow lock and then deploy a head kick once they are in the bent over position to finish the situation.

While I personally don't like it, against an untrained attacker that you caught off guard it could work, and would result in you kicking them in the head as part of a choke defense.


South this is the classic, primeval, untrained strangle attempt we're on about it guess? Ie attacker is in front of you with both hands gripping and squeezing your neck?

In which case, most martial artists, after just a few weeks, will be familiar with approximately one gazillion ways to break the grip and escape or counter, very few of which would be a kick to the head.

I'm glad you clarified the jurisdiction as being US law. Here in Britain, the use of violence is highly frowned upon and while it is permitted in self defence, even if it results in the attacker being killed, it always comes under scrutiny and has to be explained in full to determine if the force was justified or not.


Certainly. And depending on the jurisdiction in the US, you will get varying levels of scrutiny, but you asked specifically about the kick to the head thing so...

Anyway, it's not that different over here, but the thing about choke holds being lethal force comes from multiple court cases involving law enforcement and their use of them.
Recognize that the rules of engagement IN THE FIGHT are not that different for LEO's than they are for civilians.
The differences come before and after.
Civilians often have a duty to retreat. Although not where I live. And they NEVER have a duty to protect.
LEO's DO have a duty to protect. So do certain medical personnel depending on the circumstances. As such, they are given more latitude about moving to engage than a civilian would be. It is also presumed that they have the tools and training to do this safely and effectively. Ask Bushido_Man and Tallgeese to tell you their stories of why this is not always the case some time.

The thing we don't want to conflate here is the difference between self defense and justified use of force.
A lot of what LLLEARNER does is NOT self defense. He is moving to engage a potential threat and resolve a situation with justified use of force.
Self defense is about protecting your own body and preferably escaping the threat as soon as possible.

There are a lot of overlapping tools, but the goals are very different.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1703

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is more than one kind of selfdefense. Obviously(it should be obvious) defending from an attack on the street and dealing with one in the course of doing a job is different. In the former, the defender is not on duty. Escaping is always an option and once the threat has passed it is finished.

Those whose job it is to protect other people and actively deal with violent or deranged individuals are much more scrutinized and their actions when handling a threat must follow the rules and policies of the establishment for which they work. In addition, it is very likely that they will have to contend with their administration, the attacker(especially in a holding facility) and other complications after the fact.

As far as asylums or other such places, the focus of the self-defense programmes have always been on group action and favour restraining techniques to control and subdue violent and aggressive patients. Others were techniques to break holds to escape and then call for help.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
There is more than one kind of selfdefense. Obviously(it should be obvious) defending from an attack on the street and dealing with one in the course of doing a job is different. In the former, the defender is not on duty. Escaping is always an option and once the threat has passed it is finished.

Those whose job it is to protect other people and actively deal with violent or deranged individuals are much more scrutinized and their actions when handling a threat must follow the rules and policies of the establishment for which they work. In addition, it is very likely that they will have to contend with their administration, the attacker(especially in a holding facility) and other complications after the fact.

As far as asylums or other such places, the focus of the self-defense programmes have always been on group action and favour restraining techniques to control and subdue violent and aggressive patients. Others were techniques to break holds to escape and then call for help.


This makes a lot of sense. This is better than talk of kicking patients in the head.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
Spartacus Maximus wrote:
There is more than one kind of selfdefense. Obviously(it should be obvious) defending from an attack on the street and dealing with one in the course of doing a job is different. In the former, the defender is not on duty. Escaping is always an option and once the threat has passed it is finished.

Those whose job it is to protect other people and actively deal with violent or deranged individuals are much more scrutinized and their actions when handling a threat must follow the rules and policies of the establishment for which they work. In addition, it is very likely that they will have to contend with their administration, the attacker(especially in a holding facility) and other complications after the fact.

As far as asylums or other such places, the focus of the self-defense programmes have always been on group action and favour restraining techniques to control and subdue violent and aggressive patients. Others were techniques to break holds to escape and then call for help.


This makes a lot of sense. This is better than talk of kicking patients in the head.


I mentioned kicking simply because the OP mentioned Muay Tai. While I should not have said to the head, certainly wrist techniques and potentially knee strikes and foot stomps are more applicable in the that proximity. It also depends in the manner of the attack.

Most of what we do is restraint oriented techniques, but I have stepped into block a punch or charge aimed at another staff member. Our goal is to not have had used any physical techniques each shift. We start with verbal, and the vast majority of the time it ends there. Occasionally we then move to physically restraining people and we always want to cause the least harm possible, but recognize that some harm may be unavoidable. Rarely, we have out if the norm violence. A patient pulled a knife on a triage nurse on one occasion. On another a Security Officer was lifted by his neck against a wall and choked. In that particular case the OP would have been legally justified in using his Muay Tai skills, and his employer might have dismissed him for policy violations depending on the administrations attitudes.

We also have units behind multiple locked doors which inhibit QUALIFIED and WILLING back-up. More than once officers have been dealing with an out of control person alone while other (non-security) staff stand there and watch.

If it is a little old lady with dementia, your justified force is going to be way less than if it is a young, strong, determined man. Me I just move to the side before the little old lady can reach me. But, we have nurses that have not learned tai sabaki. Keep in mind, it is not always patients that present threats in hospitals.

Legally speaking, lethal force is lethal force. Generally, if you are justified in using a gun, you are justified using a knife, or bare hands. A tool is a tool is a tool.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching

"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano
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