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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
If Mayweather has a heart attack, a stroke, and is struck by lightning all at the same time, he'll still beat conner 12 rounds out of 12


This. All day, everyday.
A heart attack, a stroke and struck by lightening, is what Mayweather is going to feel like happened to him, after the fight with Mcgregor.
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pinklady6000
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not think it is fair, conner should be able to kick mayweather in the shins.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Win or lose Conor MacGregor makes history with a hundred million in his back pocket.

The experts predict Conor to lose as he is the underdog, that combined with the luck of the Irish is why he will win, with the support of his entire Irish countrymen behind him, with every punch he lands on the day, he knows that he is also fighting for all of them.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Win or lose Conor MacGregor makes history with a hundred million in his back pocket.

The experts predict Conor to lose as he is the underdog, that combined with the luck of the Irish is why he will win, with the support of his entire Irish countrymen behind him, with every punch he lands on the day, he knows that he is also fighting for all of them.


Simply put, Conner does NOT have the skill to beat Mayweather at all in any way whatsoever in a boxing ring.

Many people simply do not know just how good professionals are in their respective trades.

I remember when Dana White announced Diego Sanchez as the second best jiu jitsu fighter in mma behind BJ Penn several years ago... For as amazing as people thought he was, the guy was a blue belt. It was a bit of an embarrassing statement. This Conner McGregor issue isn't much different. I cannot stress just how skilled boxers are at footwork, head movement, and perhaps most importantly, their jabs. Seriously, Nate Diaz is able to stand and trade with McGregor and his boxing is "solid" as it pertains to the MMA world but far from being "good" in the boxing world. McGregor is very precise and very powerful, but that doesn't mean much in the world of pro boxing because EVERYONE at that level is. What makes a pro boxer a skilled pro is his defense and frankly with what he eats fighting Nate, he doesnt stand a chance in any way shape or form in any round ever against someone like Mayweather.

Consider that Mayweather has probably thrown more punches in a single boxing match than Mcgregor has in his entire MMA career combined- and hes had 49 of these fights. That's ALL he does and does it against others that also ONLY do that.

Do I want McGregor to win? Absolutely. Mayweather is a cocky and racist POS and I'd love nothing more than the king of trash talk do a "Giants vs Patriots" type ruining of a career. It just wont happen though.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:
Win or lose Conor MacGregor makes history with a hundred million in his back pocket.

The experts predict Conor to lose as he is the underdog, that combined with the luck of the Irish is why he will win, with the support of his entire Irish countrymen behind him, with every punch he lands on the day, he knows that he is also fighting for all of them.


Simply put, Conner does NOT have the skill to beat Mayweather at all in any way whatsoever in a boxing ring.

Many people simply do not know just how good professionals are in their respective trades.

I remember when Dana White announced Diego Sanchez as the second best jiu jitsu fighter in mma behind BJ Penn several years ago... For as amazing as people thought he was, the guy was a blue belt. It was a bit of an embarrassing statement. This Conner McGregor issue isn't much different. I cannot stress just how skilled boxers are at footwork, head movement, and perhaps most importantly, their jabs. Seriously, Nate Diaz is able to stand and trade with McGregor and his boxing is "solid" as it pertains to the MMA world but far from being "good" in the boxing world. McGregor is very precise and very powerful, but that doesn't mean much in the world of pro boxing because EVERYONE at that level is. What makes a pro boxer a skilled pro is his defense and frankly with what he eats fighting Nate, he doesnt stand a chance in any way shape or form in any round ever against someone like Mayweather.

Consider that Mayweather has probably thrown more punches in a single boxing match than Mcgregor has in his entire MMA career combined- and hes had 49 of these fights. That's ALL he does and does it against others that also ONLY do that.

Do I want McGregor to win? Absolutely. Mayweather is a cocky and racist POS and I'd love nothing more than the king of trash talk do a "Giants vs Patriots" type ruining of a career. It just wont happen though.
If Mayweather was in his prime I would be in full agreement with you TJ-Jitsu.

McGregor isn't a boxer, if he tries to box Mayweather, YES McGregor will lose.

McGregor needs to fight Mayweather and not to box him.

As the saying goes "Don't box a boxer and don't grapple a grappler"

As McGregor is in his prime while Mayweather is not, the strategy is in McGregors favor to prolong the fight to wear down the opponent, while Mayweather's strategy should be to end the fight ASAP.

Therefore McGregor needs to play the hand he is delt with accordingly.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
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Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:

If Mayweather was in his prime I would be in full agreement with you TJ-Jitsu.


That's a matter of opinion and to be frank, I think you're wrong. Many people talk about "prime" but have a very difficult time distinguishing what that term even means, or that it means one particular thing. Mayweather is not more than a year or so removed from beating Pac quite decisively. Too often people think "prime" means your physical prime but that's just not the case.

-
-
Consider
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Some fighters are athletic only in the sense that they do stuff but they're not really sure how they do what they do or why they do it. These are the kind of fighters that hit their prime in their mid to late 20s and die out into their 30s as their recovery starts to wean. Mayweather is far from this type of fighter, and this type of fighter represents one extreme of fighter- the purely athletic but not very intelligent fighter...
-
-
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The other type is exactly what Mayweather is- the technician. He knows exactly what why and where hes doing what he is. This is the type of fighter that improves drastically with experience but precisely because they consciously are able to learn and adapt their game. This is the type of fighter that gets significantly better as he ages because his game is based off of intelligence and technique rather than raw athleticism. Consider fighters like Couture, Liddell, and Anderson Silva who hit their prime in their late 30's early 40's. They were "solid" at the younger age, but it was their marked progress in efficiency that made them the champions they became. Vitor Belfort would be considered a decent example of their opposite. Coming after his victory over Pac, I don't think Mayweather was ever more dangerous in a boxing ring than he is now.

Alan Armstrong wrote:

McGregor isn't a boxer, if he tries to box Mayweather, YES McGregor will lose.

McGregor needs to fight Mayweather and not to box him.

As the saying goes "Don't box a boxer and don't grapple a grappler"


You're not wrong, but the problem here is the ruleset- McGregor cant "not" box Mayweather- that's the rules that are dictated! If this were a kickboxing match then sure it becomes a valid discussion, but hes got no choice but to box Mayweather which is exactly why hes going to lose.

Alan Armstrong wrote:

As McGregor is in his prime while Mayweather is not, the strategy is in McGregors favor to prolong the fight to wear down the opponent, while Mayweather's strategy should be to end the fight ASAP.

Therefore McGregor needs to play the hand he is delt with accordingly.


Once again, see the above in regards to fighters in their prime and let me explain why your assumption is correct... if it were reversed.

McGregor doesn't have a big gas tank. There are several reasons why this may or may not be, but most of it comes down to efficiency. A very precise fighter, McGregor doesn't need to throw many punches to get his desired effect. What this means is that from a technical standpoint he may not be throwing his punches as efficiently as he could (maximizing large muscle groups and minimizing small ones).
-
-
- Consider an example of one
I just started hitting pads after several months time. Not being in terribly good shape, I wouldn't be expected to go very long. I can however throw very efficiently for 3 rounds with lots and lots of fast powerful kicks. 10 years ago when I was in great physical shape from jiu jitsu, I'd still only last a single round because I wasn't throwing my strikes efficiently compared to now despite being in much better shape physically. That's the fallacy is the assumption that both fighters are using the same amount of energy to throw the equivalent number of strikes. This is one example of how technical knowledge can mascarade as athletic ability when it is not. Mayweather has developed absolutely efficiency as it pertains to throwing punches and boxing merely because hes had to- that's his job. When you consider hes just fought one of the most aggressive boxers in the game in Pac, there just simply is no way that McGregor can mount even a fraction of the offense that Pac did, or throw near half the amount of punches with the same consistent power. In this sense, the longer the fight the more it favors Mayweather. Its in McGregors best interest to attempt to finish early, but against perhaps the greatest defensive boxer to ever be in the game, that just isn't an intelligent solution.
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He has no chance whatsoever under any circumstances including any and all parallel dimensions against Mayweather in a boxing match. Hes just as likely to put on a kimono and defeat Jacare in a jiu jitsu match.
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Alan Armstrong
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2146


PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:

If Mayweather was in his prime I would be in full agreement with you TJ-Jitsu.


That's a matter of opinion and to be frank, I think you're wrong. Many people talk about "prime" but have a very difficult time distinguishing what that term even means, or that it means one particular thing. Mayweather is not more than a year or so removed from beating Pac quite decisively. Too often people think "prime" means your physical prime but that's just not the case.

-
-
Consider
-
Some fighters are athletic only in the sense that they do stuff but they're not really sure how they do what they do or why they do it. These are the kind of fighters that hit their prime in their mid to late 20s and die out into their 30s as their recovery starts to wean. Mayweather is far from this type of fighter, and this type of fighter represents one extreme of fighter- the purely athletic but not very intelligent fighter...
-
-
-
The other type is exactly what Mayweather is- the technician. He knows exactly what why and where hes doing what he is. This is the type of fighter that improves drastically with experience but precisely because they consciously are able to learn and adapt their game. This is the type of fighter that gets significantly better as he ages because his game is based off of intelligence and technique rather than raw athleticism. Consider fighters like Couture, Liddell, and Anderson Silva who hit their prime in their late 30's early 40's. They were "solid" at the younger age, but it was their marked progress in efficiency that made them the champions they became. Vitor Belfort would be considered a decent example of their opposite. Coming after his victory over Pac, I don't think Mayweather was ever more dangerous in a boxing ring than he is now.

Alan Armstrong wrote:

McGregor isn't a boxer, if he tries to box Mayweather, YES McGregor will lose.

McGregor needs to fight Mayweather and not to box him.

As the saying goes "Don't box a boxer and don't grapple a grappler"


You're not wrong, but the problem here is the ruleset- McGregor cant "not" box Mayweather- that's the rules that are dictated! If this were a kickboxing match then sure it becomes a valid discussion, but hes got no choice but to box Mayweather which is exactly why hes going to lose.

Alan Armstrong wrote:

As McGregor is in his prime while Mayweather is not, the strategy is in McGregors favor to prolong the fight to wear down the opponent, while Mayweather's strategy should be to end the fight ASAP.

Therefore McGregor needs to play the hand he is delt with accordingly.


Once again, see the above in regards to fighters in their prime and let me explain why your assumption is correct... if it were reversed.

McGregor doesn't have a big gas tank. There are several reasons why this may or may not be, but most of it comes down to efficiency. A very precise fighter, McGregor doesn't need to throw many punches to get his desired effect. What this means is that from a technical standpoint he may not be throwing his punches as efficiently as he could (maximizing large muscle groups and minimizing small ones).
-
-
- Consider an example of one
I just started hitting pads after several months time. Not being in terribly good shape, I wouldn't be expected to go very long. I can however throw very efficiently for 3 rounds with lots and lots of fast powerful kicks. 10 years ago when I was in great physical shape from jiu jitsu, I'd still only last a single round because I wasn't throwing my strikes efficiently compared to now despite being in much better shape physically. That's the fallacy is the assumption that both fighters are using the same amount of energy to throw the equivalent number of strikes. This is one example of how technical knowledge can mascarade as athletic ability when it is not. Mayweather has developed absolutely efficiency as it pertains to throwing punches and boxing merely because hes had to- that's his job. When you consider hes just fought one of the most aggressive boxers in the game in Pac, there just simply is no way that McGregor can mount even a fraction of the offense that Pac did, or throw near half the amount of punches with the same consistent power. In this sense, the longer the fight the more it favors Mayweather. Its in McGregors best interest to attempt to finish early, but against perhaps the greatest defensive boxer to ever be in the game, that just isn't an intelligent solution.
-
-
He has no chance whatsoever under any circumstances including any and all parallel dimensions against Mayweather in a boxing match. Hes just as likely to put on a kimono and defeat Jacare in a jiu jitsu match.
Do you really think McGregor is going in to this fight to box Mayweather?

McGregor is going in to this fight to beat up Mayweather with his fist and I for one believes he can do it (depending on his strategy for the bout) no matter the odds against him.

If this was a grappling bout, you wouldn't hear a single word from me on who would/could win; bit that would be another topic.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:


Do you really think McGregor is going in to this fight to box Mayweather?

McGregor is going in to this fight to beat up Mayweather with his fist and I for one believes he can do it (depending on his strategy for the bout) no matter the odds against him.

If this was a grappling bout, you wouldn't hear a single word from me on who would/could win; bit that would be another topic.


Do you/have you any boxing experience Alan? I'm not attempting to be condescending, but the ruleset they are fighting under IS boxing.

What this means is despite any thoughtful ideas or wishful thinking McGregor has NO CHOICE but to BOX. That's the rules. He cant kick, he cant elbow, he cant grappling. This is a BOXING match.

Give me any conceivable game plan that McGregor has that doesn't include boxing. Slug it out? That's boxing. Pick his shots? Also boxing. Tire his opponent? Still boxing....

Anything and everything you can do with your hands within the established ruleset is boxing. Its all been tried against Mayweather. Do I seriously think McGregor is going to box Mayweather? Of course, because he signed the contract and that's the ruleset they're competing under. You do understand that boxing is everything and anything you can do with your hands in those gloves within the ruleset to win right? Which points out the obvious- whatever strategy McGregor brings WILL be boxing no matter what, and that's why he'll still lose.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Alan Armstrong wrote:


Do you really think McGregor is going in to this fight to box Mayweather?

McGregor is going in to this fight to beat up Mayweather with his fist and I for one believes he can do it (depending on his strategy for the bout) no matter the odds against him.

If this was a grappling bout, you wouldn't hear a single word from me on who would/could win; bit that would be another topic.


Do you/have you any boxing experience Alan? I'm not attempting to be condescending, but the ruleset they are fighting under IS boxing.

What this means is despite any thoughtful ideas or wishful thinking McGregor has NO CHOICE but to BOX. That's the rules. He cant kick, he cant elbow, he cant grappling. This is a BOXING match.

Give me any conceivable game plan that McGregor has that doesn't include boxing. Slug it out? That's boxing. Pick his shots? Also boxing. Tire his opponent? Still boxing....

Anything and everything you can do with your hands within the established ruleset is boxing. Its all been tried against Mayweather. Do I seriously think McGregor is going to box Mayweather? Of course, because he signed the contract and that's the ruleset they're competing under. You do understand that boxing is everything and anything you can do with your hands in those gloves within the ruleset to win right? Which points out the obvious- whatever strategy McGregor brings WILL be boxing no matter what, and that's why he'll still lose.
Sorry to disappoint you TJ-Jitsu but for boxing experience, my father was a boxer (Pro) didn't find that out until I did something wrong, as other kids were spanked on the backside, my dad was throwing hooks and jabs at me.

I have had experiences with golden glove fighters in my past, as they had always fought against other boxers, having a "friendly" with me was an eye opener for them; according to boxing rules.

I understand that McGregor and Mayweather are fighting under boxing rules, it is however possible to have a fight (Duke it out) under these conditions.

I have grown up with both of these types of competitors and as boxing is being threatened by MMA, Mayweather has been given the task to defend the honor of the boxing world.

Champion boxers make a huge amount of money compared to MMA fighters.

If McGregor wins against Mayweather. then a huge amount of support and interest will switch from boxing to MMA.

This switch is inevitable perhaps not today or tomorrow but most certainly in the future.

Like it or not, the future belongs to MMA.

The future belongs to the McGregors of this fighting world.
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TJ-Jitsu
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Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you TJ-Jitsu but for boxing experience, my father was a boxer (Pro) didn't find that out until I did something wrong, as other kids were spanked on the backside, my dad was throwing hooks and jabs at me.

I have had experiences with golden glove fighters in my past, as they had always fought against other boxers, having a "friendly" with me was an eye opener for them; according to boxing rules.


As I said I wasn't being condescending, so I'm not "banking" on you not having any experience, but the opinions and rationale youre giving do not reflect having much experience. I'll try to elaborate on that later with examples.

In regards to opening the eyes of "golden glove" boxers I have two responses to that:
One is that if you're operating outside the realm of boxing I can only say sure- they only operate within the world of boxing so that's only natural.

Two is that "Golden Gloves" gets tossed around SO much these days that people often have no idea what it is. Golden Gloves is for Amateurs and I mean that in the literal sense. Anyone talking about golden gloves at the professional level is the equivalent of a college football player bragging about his high school accomplishments.

Alan Armstrong wrote:

I understand that McGregor and Mayweather are fighting under boxing rules, it is however possible to have a fight (Duke it out) under these conditions.


Statements like this are what I'm referring to when saying you're assumptions sound as if they're from someone who hasn't much experience.

"Duking it out" IS boxing. Having a "slugfest" IS boxing. Many people assume that "boxing" means you're attempting to "touch" your opponent and you're "not trying to hurt" your opponent. That is to suggest that if you come in with "Look out OMG I'm Crazy!" haymakers that its going to somehow be a different fight. There are very specific reasons why boxers don't just throw everything into a punch right from the get go:

-Its WAY too slow. To throw only your most powerful punches with the utmost amount of power is simply way too slow against any competent boxer. Big power punches are much more telegraphed that your classic speedy punches such as jabs and crosses.

-Because its too slow, a skilled boxer can quickly counter these attempts at overwhelming them. What this means is that you're eating a 3 piece from your opponents before your one big shot has even had an opportunity to land.

-Putting too much into a punch will off balance you and tire you out too fast. This is often seen with novice level boxers (who may be experienced fighters even) where they put too much behind their punches to the point they off balance themselves. Even if they hit, they have no (good) follow up punches and now have to regain their balance before they can begin to mount any credible attack. God forbid they miss with that big shot, they're now wide open for very powerful counterattacks. That's part of what learning how to box is.

-A (good) professional boxer can break your nose or your orbital with a jab. There is a tremendous amount of power that can be behind a good jab. Most people have no idea just how powerful these punches are because the other guy doesn't appear to be hurt by them. The other guy in these circumstances though is also of reputable skill so theyre often defending or rolling with the punches accordingly. When you have such a discrepancy in skill (as we do here) you'll start to see just how good they really are.

Alan Armstrong wrote:

I have grown up with both of these types of competitors and as boxing is being threatened by MMA, Mayweather has been given the task to defend the honor of the boxing world.


Champion boxers make a huge amount of money compared to MMA fighters.

If McGregor wins against Mayweather. then a huge amount of support and interest will switch from boxing to MMA.

This switch is inevitable perhaps not today or tomorrow but most certainly in the future.

Like it or not, the future belongs to MMA.

The future belongs to the McGregors of this fighting world.


Agreed on most parts, except the end. McGregor has done enough to show hes world class, but not enough to give the reputation he and Dana have apparently given him. He has yet to defend either of his titles, although he gave up the 145 belt. But lets not get derailed with red herrings in this conversation....

I'm still waiting to hear how hes got any chance whatsoever. You haven't given me any credible strategies or techniques that could suggest how. I'm trying to explain to you how theres nothing inside a ring that McGregor can do that Mayweather hasn't seen 100x already from fighters significantly better, faster, stronger, and more precise with their hands than McGregor.

The only one you've given me is that hes going to "Duke it out" with Mayweather as if several of his past 49 opponents haven't attempted the same thing, and ALSO as if "duking it out" isn't boxing.

Consider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYQwXDyi-5k
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